Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

driller

El Presidente
Staff member
Cool! :)

I considered the same a long time ago, before the 4.10 gears anyway. I thought of using the signal from the reverse position of the MLPS to trip a relay to momentarily switch a connection to ground to the T/C and O/D switch circuits, imitating the momentary switches.
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Sounds pretty cool. I think the Gen 2 drivers would especially like it since their traction control isn't just a simple button.
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Switching to ground won't do anything. The switch doesn't sink to ground. It sources 12v for a momentary pulse to the computer. This signals the computer to toggle TC and/or OD on or off. The only problem is you have to wait at least 5 or six seconds for the computer to finish doing its thing. The MLPS is a good idea. I didnt think about that. My module waits about six seconds reguarless of what you do then sends a pulse to the computer to toggle TC and OD "off". I may make the module user selectable to default either TC or OD to "on" or "off" independently. Stay tuned for pics of finished modules.
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

You're right on the +12VDC signal. I stand corrected. Same principal though. The RKE module uses the momentary reverse signal to initiate the auto door lock feature. That's what gave me the idea. When you go to drive off, you obviously pass through reverse gear and can utilize the signal to switch the T/C and O/D off - sort of automatically. The switches still would function normally.
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Sweet. I'd like to be on the list of testers once you get a prototype worked up. :eek:
Although im pretty much brainwashed already to hit the switch when i start it up and go to reverse.
It's funny my passenger the other day asked me why i tap the dash board by the ashtray with finger in my truck when i start it with hand on the 5 spd. haha i never relized i did that and told her the story of the Mark's traction switch. :D
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Thats funny cause during testing it I thought I had a problem with the module but I could never duplicate it. I caught myself one morning hitting the TC button and realize it really was working properly. It will definately take a while to break that habit but old habbits can definately be broken. Will definately save you one. I ordered the parts yesterday so will probably be one to two weeks to completion.



[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
You're right on the +12VDC signal. I stand corrected. Same principal though. The RKE module uses the momentary reverse signal to initiate the auto door lock feature. That's what gave me the idea. When you go to drive off, you obviously pass through reverse gear and can utilize the signal to switch the T/C and O/D off - sort of automatically. The switches still would function normally.
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Ahhh! Thats a good idea! If thats the case you would only need one wire to send the signal to the TC module and the OD button. Dont know how long that wire would have to be tho. It would have to split off at the console somewhere to pick up both TC and OD. I thought about using the door lock signal as well but I thought it worked off the speed sensor because it "supposedly" locks the door at 3 MPH??? If you are right then you wouldnt need any "module" at all. If I can track down the signal I will put the O-scope on it and see what the signal looks like. Good idea!

Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Hey folks, just thought I would step in here and let you know that Danny came by last week with a working prototype ( Been watching the progress from the start)in his car and showed me how it works.

Really nice piece of work, it's small and compact, and take little of nothing to hook it up.

It was nice to hop in his car and not have to remember to turn the TCS switch to the off posistion, the other cool thing is like Danny was saying, that he's working on the OD mod too, he also had a proto type in the car working on that project too.

Both of the these options are something I really like and it also gives the user the option of not having the TCS delelted in a chip, cause as you very well know, once you have the option deleted in an after market chip, you never have TCS again, and I like to use mine in the rain.

But it's also nice not having to worry about beating that Mustang cause you forgot to turn off you TCS }(


Danny's "D-Mod" works flawlessly and is not visable to the user once installed, no one would ever know that the car was actaully set-up to operate the opposite way, install time is 15-30min, pending on your skill level of mechanical/eletrical abillity.




Thanx, Danny!






Jeff - :9
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

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... once you have the option deleted in an after market chip, you never have TCS again, and I like to use mine in the rain.[/div]

This is EVEN better, since you can't shut off the t/c in either Gen mark via chip. Just one more quirk that makes it tougher to mod than that mustang.

Did you work out the 2 pulse system for the 2nd gen cars yet ?
I don't care about the message center staying in T/C mode for the extra time, as it resets itself soon enough, but these two buttons are wearing out on my console :eek:
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Did you work out the 2 pulse system for the 2nd gen cars yet ? I don't care about the message center staying in T/C mode for the extra time, as it resets itself soon enough, but these two buttons are wearing out on my console :eek:
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If its just two 12v pulses Then I already know how to do it. Problem is I dont know anyone with a Gen 2. Sad aint it? If someone out there who has a gen 2 could do a simple test for me I will build a circuit and send it to them to test. I would need to walk them through a test with a test light and record the time intervals while manually turning the TC off. I could also do the same with the OD. My bet is it works the same way as gen 1 but requires an extra pulse at the proper time interval? I think I could talk someone through this very easily if someone is willing?
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
If its just two 12v pulses Then I already know how to do it. Problem is I dont know anyone with a Gen 2. Sad aint it? If someone out there who has a gen 2 could do a simple test for me I will build a circuit and send it to them to test. I would need to walk them through a test with a test light and record the time intervals while manually turning the TC off. I could also do the same with the OD. My bet is it works the same way as gen 1 but requires an extra pulse at the proper time interval? I think I could talk someone through this very easily if someone is willing?
[/div]

I'm up for it.

One thing though. The doors need to be shut to allow any changes to the vehicle settings. Do you think this circuit would override it ?
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

No I dont think this circuit would override it. I do have to ask though why would you want to toggle the TC or OD button if you have the door open. I once had a Nissan (my last BTW) and for some reason getting in the car was one fluid motion ending with the door closing. For some reason I had the car started before the door was fully closed and the talking door alarm would go off eventually annoying me enough to disconnect it. If this is the kind of situation you are refering to then I could lengthen the delay to give you plenty of time to get into the car. I origionally had it set to about four seconds but if your car hiccuped on start or maybe if you are in cold climate then it may take longer for your computer to become idle. For this reason I lengthed the delay to about six seconds. I could set it to trigger the next day if you want :) Just depends on what you want.
Hey...This brings on a new idea! I could make a module with a gen1/gen2 switch! Naw..lets keep it cheap and simple.
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
Hey...This brings on a new idea! I could make a module with a gen1/gen2 switch! Naw..lets keep it cheap and simple.
[/div]

Naw... a DPDT switch labeled "Stock"/"Race!"! }(
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong] Hey...This brings on a new idea! I could make a module with a gen1/gen2 switch! Naw..lets keep it cheap and simple.[/div]Naw... a DPDT switch labeled "Stock"/"Race!"! }(
[/div]
Man I think your way beyond the "stock" setting. Been reading about your car and your race tix. Man Im impressed! Beautiful car!
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

In a Gen 2 vehicle, you need a pulse on 2 switches, not just the one. After startup and then after the prove-out of the message center, you need to press the vehicle setting switch and then the reset switch. The EVTM does not show what is needed. The manual shows 2 wires coming from the message center, going into the switch assembly which shows each wire has a variable resistor on it connected to ground. So, if that is the case, the 2 wires probably use 2 pull-up resistors built into the message center (to keep the wires at or near 12 volts with no switches pressed) and then as each switch is pressed, a different voltage would appear on the one wire associated with the switch, depending on resistance or the resistor connected to the switch. That would change the voltage coming from the message center.
You would need a delay circuit, which you already have using a 555 timer, but then you would need to know what wire goes to what switches and what the resistance is on the wire - say when you pressed the "vehicle settings" button. Then you would need the same information when the reset button is pressed.

I have done some preliminary testing on my '98. It seems you do need the delay circuit because the message center will not even show "traction control" in the message portion until the T/C lamp is out after turning on. It also turns the T/C back on if it is already off and you decide to start the car instead of leaving the ignition just ON. You obviously need +12 volts for this circuit and the best place to get it is the Instrument Panel Warning Indicator Display, specifically from I/P fuse 5 which feeds the MIL. This is active only in run and start and is conviently located on the same switch panel, which is the easiest to modify. There are also other places on that panel to get voltages, but the one I specified will not be on in Accessory. Just pop it out, make 4 connections (at the most) and nylon strap it right in place.

The Gen 2 vehicles do things a little different ( hell, a lot different) than a Gen 1. Gen 2 has a system called a SCP or Standard Corporate Protocol in it. It is supposed to save on wires. For example, there is just one connection to the vehicle's speed sensor and that is to the cruise control. It then uses the SCP (which is 1 or 2 wires) to give that information to any other module that may need it, like the speedometer, the traction control, etc. There are many signals traveling all around the car that we are not aware of and it uses this method. One other use is the traction control ON/OFF. The switches turn the message center's display to ON or OFF, but using the SCP, the signal is sent to the traction or 4WABS module to turn it on or off. There is no other connection between the switches and the ABS module. There is a separate connection between the message center and the T/C lamp. It is a grounding pulse for about 3 to 4 seconds at startup. And as I said, nothing can be done to the T/C until this light goes out.
It would be easiest to do this at the switches, where the action is at least easily or easier to duplicate. Three pulses are needed. A delay as you already have and 2 more positive pulses at different voltages and/or different wires.

They show variable resistors in the drawings, but I'm sure they use standard value resistors connected to each of the 7 switches to do the connection to ground.
I'll get you more information as soon as I can. I have a project to get out of the way first. A scope is probably not needed. A 1/2 to 1 second pulse is probably just about right. 4 seconds for the delay.

If I can, I'll pop the switch panel out and measure the resistances on the 2 switches and tell you which of the 2 wires they are connected to. You can then take it from there. Since I don't have posi, I don't need it.
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Thats some good info John. Thanks much! You may be able to input the pulse signals behind each potentiometer to avoid having to add resistance or duplicating two different voltage levels but you would have to use the same 12V source (?) as the switches use. If the pots are on the switch module /PCB as it sounds then you would have to duplicate the voltage levels as you say in order to have a simple outside connection. I dont think it would be hard to add the extra pulse. I'll work on that one soon.
I figured out how to make the module for the new Mustang 3V GT's as well. Its much like the GenI's.
Soon as I get one working like you describe I'll send it to you for further testing if you like. It will be a few weeks min tho. I just got all the parts together for the first run of 10 for beta testing for GenI. I will convert a few of them for the Stang guys and then get on the GenII's. Thanks again for the info!
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Here is some more information you can use.
As I said before, there are two wires coming out of the message center to the switches. But, 3 wires do the work. (5 if you count illumination). The three are :
Ground Wire # 875 (BK/LB) Separate from the other grounds on the circuit board for some reason, but it shows connected to a ground behind the instrument panel G103 as opposed to the illumination lamp ground which is connected to G300.
Wire #715 (LG) Message Center Switch Input
Wire #704 (DG/LG) Message Center Switch Input.
Here is the action as you push on each switch:
I used a 10 meg ohm DVM to get these readings. Of course, the resistances are not standard and the markings on them aren't either.
Nothing new there! I doubt if they used 5% resistors, these are more like 1%.

First, wire #715 starts out with a 4.91 K ohms resistance to ground with no switches pushed.
Wire #704 starts with a 4.08 K ohms resistance to ground with no switches pushed.

Wire # 715
Starts out as a 4.91 K ohms to ground.
Press:
Vehicle Setting Switch - Changes To 1.483 K ohms.
Driver Setting Switch - Changes To 2.489 K ohms.
Range Switch - 4.91 K ohms, No Change.
Economy Switch - 4.91 K ohms, No Change.
Trip Switch - 4.91 K ohms, No Change.
Reset Switch - 4.91 K ohms, No Change.
Date/Time Switch - Changes To 552 ohms.
Compass Switch - Changes To 311.5 ohms.
System Check Switch - Changes To 921 ohms.

Wire # 704.
Starts out as a 4.08 K ohm to ground.
PRESS:
Vehicle Setting Switch - 4.08 K ohms, No Change.
Driver Setting Switch - 4.08 K ohms, No Change.
Range Switch - Changes To 312 ohms.
Economy Switch - Changes To 643 ohms.
Trip Switch - Changes To 1.158 K ohms.
Reset Switch - Changes To 2.080 K ohms.
Date/Time - 4.08 K ohms, No Change.
Compass Switch - 4.08 K ohms, No Change.
System Check Switch - 4.08 K ohms, No Change.

The switches are designed as a standard remote control would be designed with a round portion of the printed circuit exposed like a small disk shaped circle with a center slit removed to allow the small disk shaped button relayed from the push button itself to close the circuit on the PC board. Since pressing any switch obviously places another resistor in parallel with the open resistance, you could either use a relay or a transistor to short out what you would need.
First you need to wait for 3 to 4 seconds and then use a method of showing wire # 715 1.483 K ohms. After that, wire # 704 needs to see 2.080 K ohms. And that would do it.
In order to get those values, you would need a 2.10 K ohm resistor in parallel with wire # 704 and the same amount for #715 for about a 1 second pulse each in succession. This would be total across either a relay or a transistor to ground. The wattage would only be 1/16th. There are only chip resistors mounted on the switch PC board and are not very easy to get at. The wires are very small and the connections should be either crimped or soldered. A tap would not work on these small wires.
Have fun!
John
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Thanks John! This is extremely useful info when the time comes. It sounds something like the MLPS works. They use a set of presision resistors of differeent values and when you put the car in a gear the computer sees a certain voltage level and makes a decision based on the resistor values (position). I guess this type of "ID" got more widely used on the GenII? I will more than likely have questions when I get into it. I definately appreciate the work you have done to get this information. I will get you a prototype as soon as I can but im pretty dang busy the next few weekends.

Here are a few stray thoughts as I continue on:

-A 555 timer can output up to .200 Amps so it can actually drive low current(LED,buzzer etc). This eliminates the need for transistors or relays unless you want to use it to short the connections inside the module.

-The resistors are likely 1% and if they are .0603 in size then they use the eia-96 standard for marking. This allows them to use only 4 digits to identify 1% parts. Personally I hate trying to read the dang things. Like counting hairs on a gnats ass! Scroll down this link for a chart to decode them. They will likely be very close to your measurements.
http://www.bourns.com/pdfs/CHPREZTR.pdf
- I think I follow what your saying. I will look on that auction site for a module for a visual but I think I understand what you are describing.
Again thanks for the info so far and Im sure ill have more questions as I get into it. Sounds like I need to catch up with you!
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Just FYI, the Gen2 uses a +12 volt pulse the same as a Gen 1 as far as the OD On/Off. I also have a '94 EVTM, and it can be connected to the PCM, but the pin numbers are different between the '94 and the '98. However, the wire colors are the same - Tan/White stripe. In both cases, the switches are mechanical and when they are not pressed in, they go nowhere, so an outside pulse would not need an isolation diode on the transmission side, but may be helpful on the circuit you are designing.

I really don't see any reason why the same last pulse could not be used to turn the O/D off also using 2 diodes to isolate the two connections in a Gen1 vehicle.

I saw a post where you had the schematic for a Gen1 on it and I believe you used a diode to connect it to the T/C switch, just add another one and connect it to the O/D on pin 41.

The O/D is the same on a Gen 2 vehicle using a 12 volt pulse to pin 29 on the PCM.
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

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I really don't see any reason why the same last pulse could not be used to turn the O/D off also using 2 diodes to isolate the two connections in a Gen1 vehicle. I saw a post where you had the schematic for a Gen1 on it and I believe you used a diode to connect it to the T/C switch, just add another one and connect it to the O/D on pin 41.The O/D is the same on a Gen 2 vehicle using a 12 volt pulse to pin 29 on the PCM.
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Yep!I had to use isolation diodes because the OD and the TC were the exact same signal. I am going to save a few protos on my first batch and modify them for genII. If I can get it to work on genII I will then try to find a way to have circuit boards fabbed with options for both Gen I and Gen II. May or may not need an extra 555 but not sure yet? Just havent got that far yet. Cool then OD is easy!
Danny
http://home.att.net/~ndoghouse/m8/ufosig.jpg
93 Opalescent/Med Opal "UFO"
74 F100(69 302 4bbl Edlbrk,hdrs,heads...)
66 Mercedes 230S
 
RE: Traction Control / Overdrive Default off Module- working prototype

Sounds as if we're getting closer! :D
 
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