RE: Newcomer needs someone to explain suspension bags (97 LSC)
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Dear Eddie: My "opinion" is based upon my experience. I have been working on and trouble shooting cars since I was 16. I am now 48. Additionally, I have extensive training in automotive systems from 20 plus years in the Marine Corps as a Motor Transport Officer and an Assault Amphibian Officer. Both fields utilize pneumatic and hydrolic systems in their vehicles. Just for good measure, I was a Ford Parts and Service Division employee for over ten years. One of the jobs I had at Ford was Technial hotline coordinator. I have completed numerous tech training courses taught by Ford engineers. However, I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything. I am willing to bet that you do not know everything either. The reason I responded to the Newcomer's request for help was simply to give him my perspective on my own experiences. You do not like the use of the New gen Star testor, but I can't seem to find your alternative solution to the problem. You are right that detecting a hard fault must be done very quickly. You have approximaytely an hour, which is not quite the requirement to act immediately as you state in your reply. However, you did not address the memory codes that should be pulled if the vehicle owner views the "CHECK AIR RIDE" message displayed on the panel. Memory codes will remain in memory for 80 start/run cycles. Obvious mechcanical failures of bags and o-rings do not require the New Gen Star Testor. But, when your problem is not mechanical, you must then be able to diagnose a possible electrical concern. Please advise how you diagnose electrical concerns without a multi-meter and/or a star testor? You were very critical of the star testor method, but offered no other solution. Perhaps in your rush to critisize, you simply forgot to tell Newcomer what his problem is and how to correct the same. I'll bet buying parts from you topped your list of solutions! You stated that you found a lot of holes in my theories. Problem is, they are not my theories. I just gave Newcomer the information that came out of the '97 Lincoln Mark VIII Shop Manual. It's a great place to start. You should consider investing in one! The whole point of allowing the system to pump up and then shutting the air ride switch off is to try and eliminate a mechanical leak as the source of the problem. If you have an electrical concern that is causing the bags to deflate, the system should not command the bags to deflate via a faulty electrical signal with the switch off. You are right that a leaking o-ring will leak with or without the air ride switch on or off. However, with the air ride switch off, a faulty electrical signal telling the system to over vent can be eliminated as the problem if the bags leak down. Of course, it is possible that you have both an electrical problem and a leaking bag or o-ring. The switch off, however, will help to pin point that a leak is present. As far as driving the car with the switch off, with that we can agree. Several days of normal driving with the switch off will tell you a lot about the integrity of the bags and o-rings. The reason that I replaced three other components was due to age. I did not start with replacing components. I started with pulling DTCs. Lastly, you seem to think that every mechanic that works at Ford and Lincoln/Mercury Dealers does not know what he is doing. That is an exagerated opinion of yours. As in all walks of life, there are good ones and bad ones. The trick is sorting the good from the bad, and in the rare case, finding the exceptional. I gave Newcomer the name and location of the excepetional. But, I live in Texas, where the exceptional is an every day experience. Tell me about your spider valve and why I need one? xo
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The experience I was speaking of, was not just in the automotive field. I was really referring to the air suspension field only. Because of the overall stategy of the system and little things like solenoid location and their operation, air suspension on the Fords & Lincolns is a little different that other "car stuff". Its simple to understand why it does what it does...and when, but it is different.
As far as just plain automotive experience goes, I work with mechanics all the time that have been working on cars for as long as I have been alive, but to be honest, most of the time it doesn't help much in the repair of these systems. I get some of these guys that are set in their ways and have their own ideas why the system acts the way it does and won't listen to anything. They use their ideas or reasoning why a particular thing is happening and replace parts accordingly. Allot of the time, they are the ones that call back saying the part they just purchased for this car is defective, when in reality, the part they just purchased didn't have anything to do with the problem at all. It is for this reason that I would rather help a Walmart cashier, or say an attorney (o.k., I'm getting carried away) trying to repair his own car, than to help a veteran mechanic. Because I have a much better chance of getting the car fixed if the customer listens to me, rather than saying…”I know it can’t be this, and I know it can’t be this”. Over the years being on the net, I have realized that the information must be as correct as possible because there is 10 to 20 times the number of people reading the post as is posting. I know this because of the numerous customers over the years that have said….”oh, I’ve never posted, I just read”, whenever I ask them their usernames. If you give the wrong information, someone bets his or her paycheck on what you wrote and that just might not be right. They get bent out of shape and vow to not only quit coming on the sites, but give up on the car altogether. Thus giving the air suspension a bad name.
I never said "I didn't like the Star Tester". I actually think its a cool toy to have. Its just that just about the only place you can find one is a "stealership". "MY" alternative is documented all over the place. You can read about it on my site:
http://www.americanairsuspension.com/the light is coming on.htm
As far as the hard fault goes, since it is a hard fault and is always on, I have not "required" someone to have the car looked at within an hour. If it is a hard fault, most likely its going to trigger a code anyway. But like I said, whats the big rush? Its going to be their tomorrow.
My opinion on relying on the codes totally for the diagnoses is that a good bit of the time the code triggered is such a worthless code, that it didn't tell you anything that you didn't already know. An example would be for a venting problem that Mark VIII's are notorious for. If you pull the code(s), it'll read a code 98 or 99 when you have this problem. The description of this code is "unable to detect raising or lowering of the vehicle". In the time it took you to get out the Star Tester, hook it up and go through the proper sequence, you could have already diagnosed a venting problem by watching how fast the vehicle vented when you shut the car off and shut the door, in addition to WHEN the customer says the check suspension light came on. Want to know the real kicker? This can be done effectively over the phone 99.9% of the time…..WITH NO $75 to $150 trips to the dealer for diagnosis only!
As far as the Ford shop manuals go, because I have not only spent countless hours in a Ford/Lincoln training facility, but have also spent over 15 years, IN A DEALERSHIP, which I worked on this stuff day in and day out, not just on my own vehicle, I can honestly say that I know whats in the shop manual. I was also involved with Ford long enough to know that Fords engineers don't write the shop manuals. They are written by an outside company and produces numerous typo's and such and mistakes.
Ford has changed the way it looks at things over the years, and is quite different than when I first started training. It used to be that you should learn the system and know why it does what it does. Now, it is more geared in spending an hour in a book following allot of unnecessary crap to diagnose something, when they only want to pay you 15 minutes for your time. Not that you’ll listen, but I’ll let you in on a little secret. If you want to make a living as a mechanic, you need to learn the system. Not rely on something that will eat your day away. The paper pusher mentality sounds good on paper, but in the real world, if you want to do it efficiently, you need to know how it works and why it works.
I NEVER said there wasn’t a use for a Star Tester or multimeter. Heck, I wish I owned a Star Tester to let people borrow for the times when you have to have one (hard faults), so that they don’t have to pay $75+ an hour for someone that probably knows less than the customer about this stuff. The thing is, MOST OF THE TIME YOU DON'T NEED IT. I have proved this for almost 10 years!
As far as you saying that buying parts from me was THE solution, well, your either showing your ignorance or JUST PLAIN inability to read. If you did a search on "BLUECOLLAR" on this site or the site I camp out at most of the time (I thinks it against the rules to put the other sites addy here), you'll see that a good percentage of the time I'm on the net, is to help people. NOT MAKE MONEY! If I was here only to make a dollar, why would I have spent hundreds of hours designing my website to help someone fix there car themselves? Knowing good and well that the information is being used by other people, that aren’t even buying from me.
As far as you saying, that I said “every mechanic that works for Ford/Lincoln doesn’t know what he is doing”, it seems you have a problem with comprehension. I said that the majority of the mechanics today don't know didly about air suspension. There are a few outstanding people that know their stuff, but the majority don't! I can say this because I have not only worked at several different dealerships over the years, but have sold parts to and helped some of these "technicians" fix the customers car! Unless you've worked behind the scenes to know what really goes on in a dealership, you don't know what your talking about.
As far as the SPIDER VALVE goes, I never said "YOU NEED ONE". Doing research over the years, working on cars and researching the real reason something failed, I can tell you that about 80% of the Mark VIII's and Town Cars have a moisture problem. (None of the other models seem to have this problem) By the way, how do you explain the hundreds of Town Car compressor cores that come through my shop that are nothing but white corrosion inside?
When the moisture level gets to a certain level, it starts causing problems. Its the same thing as if you purchased an air compressor from Home Depot for your garage. When you first start using it, everything is great. But in time, if you don't drain it the tank,(no way to "drain" an air suspension system) everytime you use an air tool or blow sawdust, you'll get a mist of water. The air suspension system is basically the same thing. Once moisture gets inside, theres no way for it to get out. When this happens, everytime the system vents, the compressor takes a bath. Oh, because I have read the shop manual, I can say that Ford’s way to resolve a moisture problem, is to replace EVERYTHING! If you work for Ford or still get a pension from Ford, that may be a good thing. For the normal working stiff like myself, that unacceptable.
I know what your saying, because your in love with the shop manual....."but the compressor has a dryer". Anyone that knows about pneumatics knows that you don't put the dryer right off the compressor, as the air is still hot and moist and all the moisture can't efficiently be removed. (You claiming to know about pneumatics, you should know this) This is why you have to put the dryer away from the compressor to allow the air to cool down a bit. In my estimations, the dryer may catch 95-97% of the moisture. Times that by 10 years and you have a problem. Keep in mind also that any compressor produces moisture. If the system is already going to produce a certain amount of moisture normally, how much does it make when it is driven around with a leak for 6 months or more and the compressor has to work 2-10 times more than it would normally? 2-10 times more moisture, added to an already old system.
I suggest you post a poll or something to the number of people that I have helped, for profit and not for profit. If you want to give advice, I would suggest doing your research as well as doing the work, so you'll know what your talking about.
