Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

Hello all,

Thanks for all the info on the air bags and my car's sag issues. I understand that the thread strayed a bit off course and needed to be locked, but a few kind folks seemed genuinely interested in what's developed, so I'm picking it back up here.

Off topic a bit, but nothing much happened the last few days since I just got back from a total blow-out weekend at Indy. My first Indy, my first time at a race track! For those who have never been, this is something YOU MUST experience once in your lifetime. For those in the know who have been there once (or many times), now I understand why you guys love it. Great race day and great party in the Coke lot across the street. My head still hurts!

OK, back to the car. I'm still not sure I have my hands all around this thing just yet, so bear with me here just a bit. The car raises up when moving fast or first started, and lowers when driving slow or stopped. I get that, and I hope I have that much right.

Now, I pull my car into the garage every night, so the car lowers. I assume that the car doesn't stay in its "raised" position all night, that would seem like a waste of time, so I'm assuming that the car drops down and the air lets out of the bags. Does ALL the air go out, or only some?

In the morning, I get in, and before I start it, the car is in its lowered position. Is this correct? Should the bags be raised? Or are the bags supposed to hold some amount of air, and its this "residual" amount that is leaking out. Again, I'm getting confused as to why some are saying that the bags have "leaked overnight", since I'm not sure why they should be holding air all night anyway. As you can see, I come by this "newcomer" moniker the honest way .... and I'm still a bit hung over from Indy.

In addition to being confused as to why a car sitting all night is supposed to have any air in its bag anyway, the next thing that has me confused is this: normally I start my car and immediately back out of the garage. I pull out, my back tires and then my front tires pass the 1 inch lip of the concrete where the garage floor meets the driveway. Probably takes no more than 7 seconds from the time I started the car until the front tires drop down that 1" lip. In normal time, that 1" lip is no problem at all. But these days, when my front tires pass that 1" lip my car bottoms out fairly roughly. I don't see how 7 seconds would have been enough time for these bags to inflate. Do I need to change my start up procedure, and start the car and wait for a while to let the bags fill up. Why don't they tell you these things when you buy the car?

One final thing to mention, I don't think I did before. For a long time, can't say for sure but it feels like forever, when I get out of my car and turn it off, I hear a pretty loud buzzing noise, runs for about 30-60 seconds. Seemed louder in cases where I turned on the car and then turned it off real quick, like when it was parked in my driveway and I was just starting it and moving it into the garage. I mentioned this to a mechanic at my dealership, and he told me it meant that the air pump (for the bags, I now presume) was going bad. Hmmm. and yes, on many occassions, but defintely not always, I get the "check air suspension" status message. I never quite understood that one, now I guess I do: my bags have not fully inflated after 90 seconds. My car bottoms out every morning now, but I don't see that message but once in a while.


Later on I'll tell my tales concerning the "fun" I have had at my dealership, but for now I think its best if we stay firmly planted on the issues and keep this thread unlocked!

::roll:: ::roll::

Thanks everyone --

Marc

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

>The car raises up when moving fast or first started, and lowers when driving slow or stopped. I get that, and I hope I have that much right.

Incorrect. The suspension has two 'preset levels'. The parked(shut off) level and cruising(fast) level are the same at the lower level. The upper level is low speed driving(and parked while running).

>Now, I pull my car into the garage every night, so the car lowers. I assume that the car doesn't stay in its "raised" position all night, that would seem like a waste of time, so I'm assuming that the car drops down and the air lets out of the bags. Does ALL the air go out, or only some?

Only some air is released. The car is driven and parked with the suspension raised. When exiting the vehicle and upon closing the door(s), the suspension should vent to the lower 'parked' level. It does not dump all the air out.

>In the morning, I get in, and before I start it, the car is in its lowered position. Is this correct? Should the bags be raised? Or are the bags supposed to hold some amount of air, and its this "residual" amount that is leaking out.

The car should raise from the lower 'parked' level to the normal driving level. It should do this in a manner of seconds. Mine takes 15 or more depending upon how long it has been parked. If it takes longer than 90 seconds, the suspension computer shuts off the compressor and turns on the warning message on the message center.

Backing out of the garage and bottoming out in 7 seconds tells me the compressor has not lifted the car to normal height YET. The problem is it probably has to inflate from a lower than normal position.

>and yes, on many occassions, but defintely not always, I get the "check air suspension" status message. I never quite understood that one, now I guess I do: my bags have not fully inflated after 90 seconds. My car bottoms out every morning now, but I don't see that message but once in a while.

The compressor times out after 90 seconds. Depending upon how much air has leaked out of the suspension dictates how long the compressor must work to recover the proper level. You now understand.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

Red Box Rebel '

1 Were you rootig for Danica?

2. Driller is correct, the suspension has two preset positions. Some call the parked and running height curb height. The driving over 65 and parked not running height is referred to in the shop manual as trim height.

3. Regardless of the preset height, there should always be pressure in the bags. When the bags are completely deflated you will know it. The car will look like it has completely collapsed.

4. If you provide me with a fax number, I will fax you the air ride section of the '97 shop manual. As I said in earlier postings, you may have an air leak in one or more bags, or you may have an electrical concern.

5. If you can get the system to pump up to curb or trim height, turn the air ride switch off. Measure the height at each wheel and record your findings.

6. Drive the car for a few days with the switch off. Re-measure the height at each wheel each time you stop and before you drive the car. If the height remains constant, you may be able to eliminate a leaking bag or bags. If the bags are leaking, they will have to be replaced.

7. Based on the age of your Mark, I would replace the bags as preventive maintenance. But the cost is in the hundreds if you do all the work. Paying a dealer or independent could be as much as $2,000.00.

8. If you can eliminate leaking bags as the problem, you will then have to diagnose the electronics. New Gen Star Tester or equivilent and a multimeter is required. Steve at Champion L/M in Houston area knows his stuff. If you need the name of a good trouble shooting Tech in the Austin area, I will check with a Ford Service Engineer who works for the Dallas District in the field. My Ford buddy knows everyone!

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

All good answers, but I wish to add the following. There are other sources that can leak.

You can have a leaking air line, particularly the trunk mounted air lines. You could also have a stuck vent solenoid at the compressor.

Perform the self-diagnostic methods mentioned, and let us kno. Just be sure to actually drive the car with the switch turned off. Leaving it parked wont tell you much.

If you are considering the coil conversion, please contact me directly as I have come to be known as "boingy" due to my experience in the coil-conversion applications.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
Hello all,Thanks for all the info on the air bags and my car's sag issues. I understand that the thread strayed a bit off course and needed to be locked, but a few kind folks seemed genuinely interested in what's developed, so I'm picking it back up here. Off topic a bit, but nothing much happened the last few days since I just got back from a total blow-out weekend at Indy. My first Indy, my first time at a race track! For those who have never been, this is something YOU MUST experience once in your lifetime. For those in the know who have been there once (or many times), now I understand why you guys love it. Great race day and great party in the Coke lot across the street. My head still hurts!OK, back to the car. I'm still not sure I have my hands all around this thing just yet, so bear with me here just a bit. The car raises up when moving fast or first started, and lowers when driving slow or stopped. I get that, and I hope I have that much right.Now, I pull my car into the garage every night, so the car lowers. I assume that the car doesn't stay in its "raised" position all night, that would seem like a waste of time, so I'm assuming that the car drops down and the air lets out of the bags. Does ALL the air go out, or only some? In the morning, I get in, and before I start it, the car is in its lowered position. Is this correct? Should the bags be raised? Or are the bags supposed to hold some amount of air, and its this "residual" amount that is leaking out. Again, I'm getting confused as to why some are saying that the bags have "leaked overnight", since I'm not sure why they should be holding air all night anyway. As you can see, I come by this "newcomer" moniker the honest way .... and I'm still a bit hung over from Indy.In addition to being confused as to why a car sitting all night is supposed to have any air in its bag anyway, the next thing that has me confused is this: normally I start my car and immediately back out of the garage. I pull out, my back tires and then my front tires pass the 1 inch lip of the concrete where the garage floor meets the driveway. Probably takes no more than 7 seconds from the time I started the car until the front tires drop down that 1" lip. In normal time, that 1" lip is no problem at all. But these days, when my front tires pass that 1" lip my car bottoms out fairly roughly. I don't see how 7 seconds would have been enough time for these bags to inflate. Do I need to change my start up procedure, and start the car and wait for a while to let the bags fill up. Why don't they tell you these things when you buy the car?One final thing to mention, I don't think I did before. For a long time, can't say for sure but it feels like forever, when I get out of my car and turn it off, I hear a pretty loud buzzing noise, runs for about 30-60 seconds. Seemed louder in cases where I turned on the car and then turned it off real quick, like when it was parked in my driveway and I was just starting it and moving it into the garage. I mentioned this to a mechanic at my dealership, and he told me it meant that the air pump (for the bags, I now presume) was going bad. Hmmm. and yes, on many occassions, but defintely not always, I get the "check air suspension" status message. I never quite understood that one, now I guess I do: my bags have not fully inflated after 90 seconds. My car bottoms out every morning now, but I don't see that message but once in a while.Later on I'll tell my tales concerning the "fun" I have had at my dealership, but for now I think its best if we stay firmly planted on the issues and keep this thread unlocked!::roll:: ::roll:: Thanks everyone -- Marc
[/div]



If you bottom out on a 1" lip, IMHO, your air bags do not have any air in them. Your tires will be way up inside the wheelwell. A couple questions: Do you have stock tire and rims? If yes, What is the measurement from the bottom of the rim - closest to the ground, to the top of the wheelwell? My Mark is sensor lowered, and measures 22 1/2". Stock height should be 24 1/2 to 25" from the bottom of the rim to the top of the wheelwell for the front, and 24 1/4" to 24 3/4" for the rear wheels. If you have custom rims, I would say 26 1/2" from the ground to the top of the wheelwell would be ok, but not much lower than that.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

not sure if you checked out a post to the other thread you started, but Here is a few links from a guy that knows alot about the workings of the air ride for these cars:

If you feel like reading up on the "jist" of how all this works, click on this link: http://www.americanairsuspension.com/THE BASICS OF A MARK VIII AIR SUSPENSION.htm

This page is set up for you to match your problem with one of the common problems encountered: http://www.americanairsuspension.com/MARK VIII AREA.htm

Hope you are able to get the problem fixed. If you shop around you can find a few aftermarket places that sell the air shocks and air compressor items for less than what it costs at a dealer.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

Thanks guys -- I'll perform these tests and measurements over the weekend and report back.

Danica all the way! She's running in Fort Worth in a couple of weeks -- that should be great event.

Red Box Rebel, if you can get a recommendation for a great tech in Austin, I would surely appreciate it. If not for this situation, then to keep on file. I love my Mark and plan on keeping it running a long time.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update


Red Box Rebel '

1. My Ford Buddy is on vacation until next week. I will call him on Monday the 6th. It could be a few days before he reveals the name and location of the bug exterminator.

2. I will forward the info as soon as I have it.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

Red Box Rebel '

1. Ok, Newcomer, here it is:

2. I talked to two (2) Ford Field Service Engineers today. I worked with both of them during my years with the Ford Parts & Service Division. (Now called the Customer Service Division)

3. The engineer that covers the San Antonio and Austin area told me that JIMMY TURNER is the best Air Ride Tech in the Austin area. He works at MAXWELL FORD which is on the South side of Austin.

4. JIMMY used to work at Pavilion L/M and is very familiar with the Mark VIII Air ride system. The Ford engineer that recommended JIMMY has been a Ford Service Engineer for thiry (30) years in the Texas market. He knows everyone and everyone knows him.

5. Telephone number at MAXWELL FORD IS: (512) 443-5000.

6. Good luck! Let us know how you make out.

RE: Newcomer redeux: Air bags and Indy Update

Red Box Rebel --

Thanks very much, it is surely appreciated!

I bought my car at Pavilion L/M in 1996. Brought it home, parked it in my garage. That night, I go back out to sit in my new baby, the driver side door handle comes off in my hand. I hear a screw clanging as it drops down inside the door. I nearly #### my pants. The car was like 7 hours old and I'm holding the door handle in my hand.

I was in the showroom when then opened the next morning, raising a ruckus about "Lincoln Quality" and generally ranting like a lunatic, and thus began my long and generally unhappy dealings with Pavilion and their service department. Too much crap to rehash here, but I've the usual issues: $2,000 for headlights a few years back (hard wired ballast, so they socked me for like $1000 each side), never-ending brakes/rotor issues, too-dark tinted windows (dealer installed) that would not pass Texas inspection, etc. I swear that everytime I took the car into the service department, some new piece would be found sitting on the mat on the passenger side -- a stray button or knob or something.

The capper was a busted cup-holder that they wanted $900 to replace -- they told me I'd need to replace the entire console. Only Lincoln could engineer a car that needs 2k to replace the headlights and 9 bills for a cupholder ...

Anyhow, I don't go to Pavilion for "service" anymore, but I won't hold it against Jimmy, so I'll call him and give it a go over at Maxwell. They are just minutes from my work.

Thanks again, partner -- I owe you one.

Marc