Beware, political discussion may ensue

RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

"" It was especially good to see Sandy toss his hat in the ring. ""

Yes, but I still don't like it. Allow me to tell you why. I respect other people's opinions that are different than mine, and I respect their right to voice opinions that are different than mine. However, the problem on THIS board is that there is not equal representation. I think - well I am almost sure that I am the sole person of the Jewish faith who is a practicing Jew, meaning I celebrate the Holy Days, I go to a synagogue and I try to live by the laws of the Torah. However, I am NOT well versed in things political, and I admit to that. Furthermore, being Jewish I will admit that I am more Pro-Israel than many Non-Jews. So, it's difficult for me to go toe-to-toe withj well versed persons who are "on the other side" ~ and with no support on my side, I feel like a girl scout doing a tug tug-of-war with the College wrestling team !

Regarding Domestic Politics. I am an independant. I have voted for candidates of BOTH major parties. I have greatly liked a couple of not-so-popular presidents. I am not a liberal, but I am also not a conservative. I am probably catagorized as a Liberal Republican more oft than not.
So, I cannot jump in and defend many politicians, as once I do - I will be labeled!! (I don't like labels) !!

Lastly SEX! Sex, yup you heard right!
Sex in America is weird! It's perfectly fine to go see a movie like TERMINATOR or any other blood & gore movie, but Oh No, No vivid sex! Yet in the Scandanavia countries, sex is so open and accepted, yet here it's still "dirty" in many sences.
With this in mind......Had Clinton not had Sex with Monica he would not have the dark cloud above him that he has.
Clinton had many, many wonderful brilliant people around him while in office, yet you never hear of them, as you only think of Monica, & Slick Willies lying & cover ups with Monica.
One of them I'll mention, as he wears my name. Sandy Berger. Sandy was Nat'l. Defense Minister. Sandy had advised the FBI that America was in danger of air attacks by our foes. But the FBI under the direction of another person put some interest into it for a short time, and then chalked it up to heresay..... Who here has ever heard of Sandy Berger? 9/11 would probably never have happened if the FBI had taken his message seriously ~ yet, everyone has heard of Monica Lewinski !
I also think G.W. Bush has been handed a real mess, and under the circumstances he is doing a more than decent job.
I still like John McCain!! I wish he'd run on a ticket with Joe Lieberman. I know, he's a Rep and Joe's a Dem, but there is talk...... (They're BOTH nutts to want the job) !!

Off Soap Box > Time to sit on the Porsche (Oops, Porch) and smoke a nice smoooth Dunhill Diamante!!
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

HI YA SANDY!
Hey theres quite a few of us on the board that support
Israel, me included. You dont have to be Jewish. Im Irish
and German. Like I said we had better not turn our backs
on Israel. However if anyone in their wildest dreams even
remotely have a fleeting thought that there will ever EVER
be pease between Israel and the Arab A..Holes are so far out
of touch you will never reach them.

You are dealing with a large group of fanatics that want only
one thing in life(at the moment) and thats for all Jews to be
extermented...

I read somewhere that durning the past few years that over
200,000 Jews have migrated to GERMANY of all places. Im sure
they are probably from the former Soviet Union.

At any rate there will be no pease until the end times when
the antichrist takes over. Pease will last 3 and 1/2 years, and
then will be rised up against. Not my predicition, read
revelations.. :) Best to All, Jack Even You Ron!
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Mark. Most of what you posted for the bottom bracket is not an income tax. As a matter of fact it's not even a tax. Most of the "taxes" the people in the lower income tax bracket pay are for Social Security Benifits which in reality is insurance. FICA - Federal Insurance Contributions Act

A lot of workers in that bottom 20% pay no income tax at all and infact many get $$$ from the government as [link:www.irs.gov/individuals/article/0,,id=96406,00.html|EITC]. They pay no income tax but still get a "refund" check. Is this a great country or what? :-(

http://members.tccoa.com/lastmrk/Images/lastmrk2.jpg
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Sandy,

You're not alone here. I'm sure I speak for many others when I say I respect your opinions and can understand, if not fully, why you feel so strongly about Israel, even if I'm not Jewish.

The problem I see is that so many people can't seem to separate criticism of the Israeli government from Judaism as a religion. They are NOT synonymous! But it seems that anyone who criticizes the Israeli government is immediately labelled an anti-Semite. It's a very effective way of silencing people, and it's just not true! Furthermore, it pisses me off, because as God is my witness, I can can honestly say it's never been an issue!

I started to write down my thoughts on the Israeli situation, but I realized it would end up taking me another two hours to type it all out (I've re-written what you see here about six times already), and besides, judging from the lack of responses to my other posts in this thread, I figured it would be ignored too. So I just wiped it all out.

In any case, I can assure you I'm fully supportive of the Israeli people. It's her government that I have a problem with (much like our own). Yes, the terrorists must be stopped, but I don't think Israel's past policies are ever going to accomplish that. I just hope and pray the road map will work. That's all I'll say for now.

As for not being well versed in political matters, I think we're ALL pretty much hacks here. We do the best that we can. The things I write here are the same things I would say in a group of my friends. I might get angry at times (and vise-versa), but they're still my friends. Things here are obviously a little different, as you can't hear the intonations when someone speaks. That sometimes leads to hurt feelings, even when no offense was intended.

So far though, I would agree with Bryan that we've done a pretty good job as far as being civil. Now if we can just get that political forum off the ground... Hello? Anybody listening?
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Dave,

You're a litle rusty on your history. When Israel bombed Iraq, it was not to watch the USA's back. That attack was CONDEMNED by the US, by the UN, and geeze...even the Russians condemned it. (remember, this is 1980). The United States press called it "sneak attack", "an act of inexcusable and short-sighted aggression." , "state-sponsored terrorism." and "ill-advised," "reckless," "a damnable act". Even Jeane Kirkpatrick, then U.S. ambassador to the UN, described the attack as "shocking" and compared it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Reagan officials worried publicly that the raid could destabilize Saddam Hussein and bring in "someone worse."

So you see, Israel was doing this for the own selfish reasons...not to pander to the US...heck, back in 1984 Donald Rumsfield opened full diplomatic relations with Iraq, and took then off the terrorist list. Neato, huh??


Was Fuz....Hello to you too!!! :)
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

However, the problem on THIS board is that there is not equal representation. I think - well I am almost sure that I am the sole person of the Jewish faith who is a practicing Jew, meaning I celebrate the Holy Days, I go to a synagogue and I try to live by the laws of the Torah.

Hello? Princess checking in here.

I try not to confuse my faith with politics. I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest (except for Bryan's stupid map which he should know by now that I hate :p). I am not well versed whatsoever in the situation in the middle east, but I am trying to learn from the things said here. I don't believe that those who are discussing political issues which include our help to Israel would hate me just cause I'm a Jew. In fact, I have had no such problems since I have been on LOD, in fact I've had many interesting conversations with people about the differences in faith.

I, too, would like to see the political forum get up and going. This thread has shown me that these issues can be discussed, and that a lot of us can learn more about each other and the events around us by having a place to discuss this among friends.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

I thought I would throw my two cents in, since I'm not much of a political person.
This is an interesting subject since it does concern us all.
You are a great bunch of people!!
I have been reading this site with GREAT interest!!
Hope to meet some of my fellow members soon.
This site is very educational in a variety of areas.

Thanks
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Mark, I agree with 97% of what you say in the above # 63. One thing not to lose sight of it this:

This is not about a fact of the UAR wanting to put a road thru Israel. Nor is it about Israel wanting to seize all oil fields. Nor is it about allowing settlements on the west bank to PLO members. Nor is it about getting along with one & other, nor is it about PEACE. What is it about?
It's about the fact that these people have said it to the listening world, "We want all Jews in Israel dead, period!!" So, while I do not 100% of the time agree with the Israel govenrment, I do realize that they are on my side, even thought they make errors. HOW do you make peace with a group whose only mission is to want you dead? I mean really................ HOW DO you bargin that????
This latest attack - in my opinion was a bad call on the part of Israel. HE was a good target - but at a bad time! It will derail peace talks again for 90 days.
Will there ever be peace? Tell me - how do you make peace with a neighbor whose sole mission is to kill you?
Like I said - look at at map. Look at the size of the Middle East. Look how much is Israel. This will open your eyes. It's not about land, nor oil, nor religion (any) .... It's about my peoples existence, period! Like I said, we've been down THAT road before, and we went like pigs go to Armor Star/ So, naturally our hair goes up when we cannot come to terms because they only want us dead.
(THE "us" refers to Jews - NOT to Americans).
When your very existence is being threatened, you do/can/will make some irrational moves, as was made this week. Bad timing!

By the way did you know that of all Americans who posses a dual citizenship, the #1 country that other citizenship is from is Israel, so in a sence attacking Israel is akin to attacking many Americans.

By the way, my nationality is American! I am a 2nd generation American. My grandparents were German. My nationality is American. My ancestory hails from Germany. My grandparents went to the gas chambers, my parents (didn't even know one & other then) escaped to America, by way of Italy. (Thank you Italy)! My religion is Hebrew.
(Just some background). However, I HAVE studied many, many religions.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

"Israel is our ally. We help them out, they help us out. Too bad they're not allowed on the UN security council."

What does Israel do for us again?
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

You are correct Paul. Approximately 1/3 of the amount shown in the table is FICA/Medicare, approximately $500 of the total amount shown. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll try to find a table with actual income taxes/refunds the lower brackets pay. Again though, you can't get away from the consumption taxes if you consume.

'93 MonsterMark Project Car
Bryan
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Dave,

You're a litle rusty on your history. When Israel bombed Iraq, it was not to watch the USA's back. That attack was CONDEMNED by the US, by the UN, and geeze...even the Russians condemned it. (remember, this is 1980). The United States press called it "sneak attack", "an act of inexcusable and short-sighted aggression." , "state-sponsored terrorism." and "ill-advised," "reckless," "a damnable act". Even Jeane Kirkpatrick, then U.S. ambassador to the UN, described the attack as "shocking" and compared it to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Reagan officials worried publicly that the raid could destabilize Saddam Hussein and bring in "someone worse."

So you see, Israel was doing this for the own selfish reasons...not to pander to the US...heck, back in 1984 Donald Rumsfield opened full diplomatic relations with Iraq, and took then off the terrorist list. Neato, huh??

I'm sure you're right, i never investigated the facts around it. I'm sure they were doing it for their own selfish interests (i'm of the opinion that everything you do should be for your own selfish interests, read Atlas Shrugged) but it just so happened that their interests aligned with ours, even if our government didn't recognize it. Bottom line, had that not happened, Saddam WOULD have had nuclear weapons.

Sandy, you're right. The "latest attack" was actually this morning, though, now. Peace in the middle east is a pipe dream. The only way to negotiate with someone who wants you dead is to trade 10 bombs for every one of theirs. At least when palestinian civilians die, their bystanders and not the target... when the Israeli civilians are killed, they are the target. Our "road map for peace" should be a statement to Israel to the effect of "we have your back, blow those ****ers up."

I support your views on Israel, and i'm not Jewish. I just decided one day to look around the internet a bit and find out for myself whats up with this conflict, and i was dumbfounded as to why the PLO was even allowed to continue to exist.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Dave,

Let me get this straight. You think that Saddam Hussein's gov't directly sponsored the training of the Saudi nationals who bombed the WTC? When presented with this same argument, Colin Powell himself was heard to mutter "This is bull****".

And how could Saddam possibly threaten the United States? He couldn't even make a dent in the American offense ON HIS OWN SOIL!! Yet he's a threat to do what exactly to the Unites States, on their own soil no less?

C'mon Dave...quite goofing off!! :)

Ron, according to that link you sent me (see below), the "BS" comment was not attributed to any specific allegation. It was during a meeting to weed out intelligens that wasn't verified.

"For six hours that Saturday, the men and women of the Bush administration argued about what Secretary of State Colin Powell should--and should not--say at the United Nations Security Council four days later. Not all the secret intelligence about Saddam Hussein's misdeeds, they found, stood up to close scrutiny. At one point during the rehearsal, Powell tossed several pages in the air. "I'm not reading this," he declared. "This is bulls- - -." "

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/030609/usnews/9intell.htm
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Strapp, Last year Israel purchased 2 billion dollars worth of airplanes from us and it's the Israely intelligence that is training our security at national airports. There was a TV show on this.
 
the Israelis .....

the Israelis .....

I can only comment on the military side of this but the Israelis have supplied us with numerous Soviet and Eastern block weapons they have captured in Middle East conflicts. These weapons have allowed our military to develop new tactics and counter measures that have saved the lives of countless US aircrew members in the last two Gulf Wars. The ability to know the weaknesses of the Soviet supplied armor and other weapons have allowed our ground forces to develop tactics and modify our equipment to be second to none in the world.

They are seemingly the only democracy in that part of the world at times but we, the US, is continually “twisting the arm” of the Israelis and holding them back until they really are forced to strike back for there own protection. It’s not a pretty situation, but I do feel they are willing to try if only the militants would stop their attacks on the innocent civilian population.

As a side note, I guess nobody remembers that the PLO was kicked out of Jordan in 1970 using military force. It seems none of the Arab states really want the PLO but they hate Israel worse and continue to use this as an excuse to support it.


** Bill **
1995 LSC-R'ed w/Recaro's and Cobra R's
Veteran of Carlisle 2000/01/02/03
[a href=//cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=258112]For Pic's and Mods click here[/a]

...Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself....
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

"Israel is our ally. We help them out, they help us out. Too bad they're not allowed on the UN security council."

What does Israel do for us again?

"Israel, it must be noted, receives three billion in US Foreign Aid.
However, for the last five years it has an average record of voting with the United States 94% of the time."

If you recall, we specifically told them not to assist us in Iraq this time. They were ready to take our backs, we said no, since that could cause more political troubles in the middle east than we already caused for ourselves.
 
RE: the Israelis .....

RE: the Israelis .....

>Strapp, Last year Israel purchased 2 billion dollars worth of airplanes from us


Yes... with our money.
 
RE: the Israelis .....

RE: the Israelis .....

jd, IF you're not kidding, and your thinking is that short sighted, then how about Japan? They are buying up ALL of America, with our money!! Yes, our money that bought their cars made in America in buildings located on tax-free land donated to them by various states and given tax-free land on which to operate and sell us their cars, and then send the profits back to Japan who in turn then buys up all of the prime assists of America. Under Japanese ownership are:-

Rockerfeller Center
CBS
Pebble Beach Golf Course
More than Half the Commercial Land on 5Th Ave in NYC
Columbia Pictures & Records & CDs & Cassettes
The largest Potatoe Processing plants in America
Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc.

At the current rate of expansion, it is estimated that in another 12 years 50% of all of America's wealth will be controlled by Japan.

THIS is what Japan is doing for us!!!

Israel is teaching OUR flawed security system around the country to bring them up to the levels in Israel, who every nation agrees has the ultimate security systems in the air.
 
RE: the Israelis .....

RE: the Israelis .....

...anyhow, it's been enlightening, to say the least. I don't know how I got into this, but I am bowing out, while I am still friends with everyone. I wanna go start a new thread about how Japan is rapeing us & stealing out country from us ECONOMICLY-SPEAKING !
Also need to go find my eyeglasses so I can see what the heII I am typing/doing....Man I am BLIND !!

Bye-For-Now-To-All. Surprisingly, I am not bleeding, and am unscathed! :)
 
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