The Truth

RE: The Truth

Funny thing.....

I missed 100% of all of this ! Why? I was working to make our club better, and to make all of you happy. I am woking on sending out the beloved decals (YES, the brand new ones) in getting together the "kits" to mail out to those who volunteered to assist. 415 decals to be packaged, stuffed into 7 padded envelopes, stamps to be enclosed - packages to be weighed, return labels, etc, etc so that all 415 of you get your nice new stickers!

Back to work....... (I have no comments herein, as I make no comments other than to lead by example.)

Raining once again - dark as night at 11:30AM good day to do this work for the club....
 
RE: The Truth

Most of the problems seem to have been initiated by some people (mostly newcomers) who did not like the rules of the board as they existed and did not want to follow the terms of use that they agreed to while using the board. Instead of just dealing with it or moving on, what do they do? They whine, they bicker, they complain.
Click to expand...

I won't even deal with how inappropriate your post overall is, and how repulsive I find nasty behavior such as that, but I will say that the above statement, although perhaps is perceived to be true, can't be farther from the truth. It was long term members, myself included, who were very unhappy with one person taking control of what the club had built. There's oh so much more to it, but I remember back then, being told we were going to have a place with no rules. That's not what this is. This is a place where members have a right to say what they have to say and have input into how this message board and club are run.

Why do members, who pay dues have to just deal with it? They don't. For all our faults or whatever, the intent of this group of leaders is for the Club as a whole.

I think Mark has a lot of valid points that should be looked at. Truthfully, I was a moderator and we tried oh so hard to be fair.

We took the jobs as moderators here because we were entrusted, as officers, to represent the membership of the club. We may not have been the best choices, but I actually thought it improved unity, and showed that no one person here could make decisions which could not be changed. As opposed to elsewhere. It would be wonderful IMO to have an outside administrator of this site.

What else do I have to say? Oh so much. Do you have any idea how hard we try to be fair to all? How I would put myself into bad positions just to defend members and/or their points of view? Do you know how hard it has been for us to bite our tongues so as not to air the dirty laundry publicly? Do you REALLY want to know what has been done/said, etc. to me personally by people who had called me their friend??? Do you want to know how my son was also dragged into this mess? Well, I'd like to be able to access past information, but as of this morning, all of my e-mail from last week and prior appears to be corrupted. Coincidence? possibly, but after having my private posts from here on the Moderator forum (no big secret - where do other moderators do their moderating discussions - chat rooms?) and from another place where I post privately put up for public display by various members and friends of the club, excuse me for being a little sensitive and suspicious.


P.S. Have you returned the Club's banner to Alexander yet?
 
RE: The Truth

BRAVO Sharon!

And Mark, can you please post the suggestion list that you posted on the dark side over here, it is very well said.
 
RE: The Truth

"Anyone who thinks that Cal and his lemmings are the good guys here had better take a better look at the facts. The BOD has done everything right in keeping our club together and I support them 110%"



Just before I posted this, I looked through a webster dictionary to make sure I wasn't jumping the gun. For those of you who don't know.....LEMMINGS= A small arctic "Rodent" with a short tail.

As anyone that knows me is aware, I always make it a point to stay far away from any of this stuff.

To me, whatever happened between Cal and the BOD is between them. I've asked and been told both sides to the story, and just like was said earlier in this post, theres always a third story.

Before continuing to post on this board, I will ask the author who made this statement to point out "who" the lemmings are.

Thank you for your time.
 
RE: The Truth

Eddie, a Lemming is also used to describe someone who blindly follows another. Of course we won't mention names here, that is what is done on the dark side in the confines of the chat room, not here. Lets just say that those that are refusing to come here and participate in the club and it's official and only message board are those in question. They are so paranoid over there that any mention of the LOD web address causes immediate suspension of the poster by one person who appointed himself lord and master of the site. For said lord and master and some of his crew to steal and use people's passwords to enter this site and wreck havoc like he did is inexcusable.

Now on to more important thinngs... I need rear shocks, what can you suggest?
 
RE: The Truth

I have come to the conclusion that politics are too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.

Charles De Gaulle
 
RE: The Truth

I've had a couple of requests to repost here what I posted over there so it can be commented on. I don't what specifically you guys want, so here's the whole thing:


I think virtually everyone at both places would like to see this resolved, but I guess it's kinda like the world political situation...most the world's populace don't have a problem with each other, it's mainly the governments that do...

I've been thinking the same thing. This whole thing reminds me of the Israeli - Palestinian situation in many ways. I think the only way to resolve this is for a semi-neutral group to come up with a plan that both sides find equitable. A "road map" if you will. I've got some ideas, a couple of which I posted on the other board.

If we got a majority of the membership to support this road map, the powers on both sides would have a choice either to accept it, or be removed from office.

At the very least, these things must be agreed to:

1. The club owns the web site and the forums, including all domain names.
2. Dues go toward the server and software costs. No out of pocket expenses are to be paid by an individual.
3. Time spent maintaining the site shall be agreed (in writing if necessary) to be strictly voluntary, and the club shall not bear any liability now or in the future for that time spent.
4. No single person has administrator access to the forum, and/or a neutral party shall be administrator.
5. The administrator's primary duty shall be limited to granting or taking access rights to the forum.
6. Moderators are voted on by the membership.
7. Board members are NOT automatically granted moderator authority, and under NO circumstances do they get admin access to the boards.


I don't think these are unreasonable. If they can be agreed to at least in principle, we can start thinking about the steps needed to get us back in one place.

The first step needs to be putting an end to this stupid legal battle.

I'd like to hear from Calvin if he could accept all or part of the above rules, and what he would like to see from the "other" side. If it's more of the "all or nothing" thing, then I guess this topic has come to an end.


Let me make one thing clear. I would MUCH prefer that no one has to step down, and that things can be worked out amicably.

One more comment as it relates to the middle east analogy: The quicker the terrorism ceases (barbed attacks from both sides), the quicker something can get worked out. The smart-ass comments and cruel accusations don't help the situation at all. Let's get past the pissing contest. I'm willing to put a sock in it, but I can't tell anybody else what to do. Do as you please.
 
RE: The Truth

We all agree with 1 through 6, this is why the LOD was forced to move it's site, those privileges were taken away by Cal on a whim. As far as 7 is concerned, I think the BOD should have admin access and moderator status, it should go with the territory.
 
RE: The Truth

DJ, well said.

Joe, I already apologized to you for the way others may have perceived this post. You already know that my intention was not to drag you into anything, but unfortunately, the use of your name has precipitated your personal involvement. The point I was, and still am, trying to make is that you, I, and Ray are still friends.
People here generally consider you a standup guy. Therefore, it seems ludicrous that we would both be friends with such a warped individual such as Ray Urso right?

Joe, I did not imply that you personally made any mistakes within the context of this situation. My point was that ALL these members have made mistakes in life. Why? Because we are all human. We make mistakes and we learn. Unfortunately, some have not learned. They carry on with the same level of immaturity and totalitarianism that they claim to deplore. “Totalitarianism” may seem like a harsh term, but lets look at this again. Ray Urso did not agree with the ONGOING Calvin bashing that existed on this board. For this he was openly ridiculed. Again my point is this Joe: Yes, Calvin’s way of doing things made you second guess your posts sometimes. No argument here. That is one way of control. Another way of control is chastising someone for feeling a certain way, expressing their opinion, and standing up for a friend.

Joe my whole point is this should be less about who did what and message boards as it should be about the good people on both sides.

Joe, you intimated to me that because you were one of the ones who did not openly hate Calvin, and actually still considered Calvin a friend, that the ‘club’ might be looking in your direction soon. How did I misunderstand this?

I am also NOT trying to create a firestorm, however, I did feel certain things needed to be said. The reason this topic was returned to the forefront is because of the recent actions of the Lincolns of Distinction Board of Directors and Moderators. Joe, the ‘club elite’ have continued to carry on this firestorm behind closed doors, and that is a shame. Everyone states how impossible the other side is to deal with. Well impossible is a term we as human beings use far too often. Has anyone tried since then to end this? Has anyone SINCE then tried the olive branch? It sound like everyone has been too busy villainizing old friends.

Remember, how many times have we heard, “no personal attacks please.” Yet there WAS an area of the board where “personal attacks” had become certain individuals’ mantras. Did you mention something about interpersonal vendetta?

Joe, I also felt it necessary to defend a good friend who was muted by the Lincolns of Distinction. What was his crime? Doing something I would have done if the positions were reversed: been curious about the Truth. I way have thrown a little salt in the wound before Carlisle, but what is truly deplorable is for an individual to receive emails and inboxes of support, while covertly receiving sentencing and villainizing from those same senders. I am all for putting this behind us. The post was designed to highlight that many members of the administration have NOT. Remember, I told you that I wanted this to create some positive discourse? Well it has. On both sides. Read some of the responses on Calvin’s board. They are extremely positive. I received a wonderful inbox from Ed about this subject. Does everyone remember Ed? I love Ed. Don’t we all still love Ed? I hope everyone is finally starting to get my point…;)

Remember Joe, even though you and I don’t agree here we are still good friends. We will still sit down and have some good Champagne at Carlisle. Hopefully, you will still come and pick me up..;) But I do know one thing, we will not belittle each other for our differing opinions.
http://pstr-m02.ygpweb.aol.com/data/00A/1A/04/3D/18/l9k57+ruATVfgrS2L26YtFyTvnur2dNK0060.jpg
 
RE: The Truth

We all agree with 1 through 6, this is why the LOD was forced to move it's site, those privileges were taken away by Cal on a whim. As far as 7 is concerned, I think the BOD should have admin access and moderator status, it should go with the territory.
Click to expand...

I suppose you're right, but I'd like to see a situation where someone outside of the BOD would have primary control of the site, at least to the point where no one can be accused of forcing their own agenda down our throats. Don't take that last sentence as a slam against Calvin. It applies to anybody who has control.

I know what's on my list is pretty much what we asked for in the first place, so I don't know if it'll make a bit of difference on the other side. It's a lot to ask of Calvin from his perspective, but I see no alternative. It has to start there.
 
RE: The Truth

Man, who the heck is this Ray Urso guy? He certainly sounds interesting. Don't answer, I'll do a search.
 
RE: The Truth

1. The club owns the web site and the forums, including all domain names.
2. Dues go toward the server and software costs. No out of pocket expenses are to be paid by an individual.
3. Time spent maintaining the site shall be agreed (in writing if necessary) to be strictly voluntary, and the club shall not bear any liability now or in the future for that time spent.
4. No single person has administrator access to the forum, and/or a neutral party shall be administrator.
5. The administrator's primary duty shall be limited to granting or taking access rights to the forum.
6. Moderators are voted on by the membership.
7. Board members are NOT automatically granted moderator authority, and under NO circumstances do they get admin access to the boards.

I am willing to work with these points. Some of them can use some adjusting. I think moderators should be approved by the membership. Maybe admistrators should not be choosen by the membership but still approved by them, since an administrator needs some skill to handle the board. An administrator also need to back up the board and do other maintainance duties.

A division between the Board of Directors and the moderators of the board is not a bad idea. The Board of Directors should still have oversight of the moderators but should not interfere with their day to day duties. Possibly a grievance committe can be set up that does not involve the moderators or Board of Directors.

I have posted several times in the past that I am willing to extend the olive branch.

I met Ray Urso again at the WISE car show this past weekend. You do not need to use the search engine. He is a good guy.

Alexander
President
Lincolns of Distinction
 
RE: The Truth

Well -- its not to say board cannot be mods, but there is alot of work on the administrative side -- seperate mods could take the pressure off the board and leave the board as a grievance / policy committee.

I dont think mods need be approved by the membership, we vote the board in and they are suppose to act in the clubs best interests. I cannont see myself disputing yours or kale's deicion as to who is best as a mod, and id rather not let politics enter into that decision. Mods need to have a certain amouth of knowledge.

All this discussion regarding bringing the boards togehter is really moot. Calvin took his ball and went home (his in calvins opinion). IMO he isnt going to do anything that might interfere with his dictatorship, and I draw that opinion from conversations I had with him before the split.
 
RE: The Truth

I HAVE SAID IT 1,000 TIMES, NOW 1,001.... 'CALVIN'S WAY OR NO WAY'

There is no room for any neogations. One has the choice to accept 100% of Calvin's wishes, or to leave. Good or bad, right or wrong, nice or not nice, whatever......that is the way it is, and will remain.
Just like a job! You do it the way you are told, or they fire you. He fired us, period!
 
RE: The Truth

I agree wth Sandy 100%...... Calvin wont play with the team.... Sandy, Ive now also said it 1001 times.....

Where is JFrahm in all this? He was all full of comments last week --- where is ne now?
 
RE: The Truth

So do you guys speak for Calvin now? Hell, why should he even consider a truce when you guys still insist on pouring salt on the wound? You're doing nothing but ensuring it never happens. Is that what you want? If not, then give it a rest! If you just like stirring up conflict (which I'm beginning to think you do), then there's nothing I can do about it I guess.

You guys could very well be right. But I'd like to hear from Calvin himself before we rush to a conclusion.
 
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