Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

Even thought the females are masculinized by the androgens, they still have female gonads, make eggs and give birth. They also do the majority of care of the young.

In general in animals the female gets pregnant and gives birth. On of the strange exceptions to this rule is the seahorse and pipefish where the male gets pregnant and gives birth. The seahorse and pipefish are close relatives.

Alexander
President
Lincolns of Distinction

Click to expand...

I dont know how much longer I could have gone on without that info.Thanks Alex, glad to know those years at med school paid off.LOL

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

John,

PitBull vs. Tosa is for the most part speculation, at least in the US. Essentially, there are no "real" fighting Tosas outside of Japan, as they are so highly prized. The Japanese, however are VERY fond of American Pit Bulls, and use them for training their smaller Tosas, and use them as their primary fight dogs too, but in the lighter classes. The APBT possess huge amounts of gameness, and are quite quick. Although the pitbulls are faster, it wasn't able to grab onto the Tosa sufficiently to injure it greatly.(remember, small Tosas are 75-100 pounds, larger than most any APBT, although there are exceptions). The Tosas neck was far too large for the pitbull to grab onto properly, and beacuse of it's huge neck jowls/rolls, when the pitbull did latch on, it was only skin for the most part. The APBT was able to break legs with bites however.

There are different styles of fighting, and each dog has its place. In the traditional fighting, the Tosa is king. This is a fight of raw power. The dogs aren't allowed to bark, whine or growl. If they do they lose (seri). Also, if the dog turns away more than 3 steps, it's also a loser (hashiri). Most wise APBT owners in Japan won't gamble stepping their dogs up in weight too much. A nice sized APBT at 75lbs would be ruined by a 200lb Tosa. Although APBT are super game, weight does matter. I mean the Tosa is over 30" at the withers. APBT are much, much more compact. You really have no idea how completely massive a 200lb Tosa is, unless you've seen one. (a 200lb man is big..imagine that 200lbs on a 32" tall frame...LOL)

They also fight the traditional Western style fights (scratch and turn Cajun rules). Most Japanese prefer APBT for that type, for their speed. This is the style of fights held in illegal US dog-fighting.

When Japanese dogmen are asked which dog they would use in a "no hold barred" type fight, they ALWAYS pick the Tosa because of its massive size. In all seriousness, it's really asking alot of a pitbull to tackle a huge 200lbs dog that is TRAINED TO FIGHT. It has been documented that pitbulls have killed bears and bulls and such, but those are the exceptions and not the rules. Top notch pitbulls have been felled by Dogue De Bordeaux and Presas, mainly because of size.

Also, only those with LOTS of money fight dogs in Japan. Oddly, it's VERY illegal to bet on the dogs, and stiff fines and banishment can happen if betting occurs. Also, these guys pay memberships to dog clubs. The fights are VERY organized. Here's the best part. Any dog that shows aggressiveness to people must be destroyed. They take it very very serious if a dog is vicious to people. People killed by dogs in Japan just doesn't happen...it's very very rare.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

Even thought the females are masculinized by the androgens, they still have female gonads, make eggs and give birth. They also do the majority of care of the young.

In general in animals the female gets pregnant and gives birth. On of the strange exceptions to this rule is the seahorse and pipefish where the male gets pregnant and gives birth. The seahorse and pipefish are close relatives.

Alexander
President
Lincolns of Distinction

Click to expand...

What's your degree in? Why are you so knowledgable about this stuff?

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

Rocket,

I still have to disagree with you about Tosa and Pits. There is a book called "The world of Fighting Dogs" written by Dr. Carl Semenic. He has travelled the world doing research about these types of dogs and in his book he doesn't rank the dogs for fighting ability becasue they all can fight very well, but he states that The best fighting dog in the world is the Pit. He covers Tosas and even has a fighting shot of them in the book. Yes they are bigger than most Pits, but a Pit that is is top condition and is a fighter would have no problem with a Tosa. In this book he states that the Pit is indisputably the most effective fighting dog ever developed by man. Contests have been staged time and time again with the Pit Bull defeating any other animal that has been called a dog and then some.

Rocket look at a Mastiff, a huge dog much bigger than most Tosas, but not a fighter big doesn't mean better, just means big. a 50 lb pit when put up against dogs well over 100 and close to 200 lbs will have trouble at first because the bigger dog will be dominate in the begining 15-20 mins, but then that bigger dog loses stamina. A game Pit will fight for hours and still want to go at it. Fights held here have generally the ssame rules as there. Pits don't make noise when fighting either at least not most of them. If a dog turns away he loses. A tosa is good against other Tosas, but not against Pits. I am a 210lb man and let me tell you one of my pits is only 41lobs and man can he pull me around if he wants to. Don't get me wrong a Tosa is a great dog and a great fighter, but nothing out there can take on a Pit that is at the top of its game.

Even on a good day a Dogue De Bordeaux could never defeat even a half way good pit in a fight. A top Presa would defeat some less game pits, but not one in top form. Think about the situation I wrote about before. A Pit Bull a sinlge Pit took down a Brahma Bull. Now for those that don't know a Brahma Bull weighs in at 2,000+ lbs. Now tell me a top pit will have trouble with something that weighs between 85 and 200lbs like a Tosa (most of which are in the 100-150lb range. 200 is big for a Tosa.). In Alaska a 55lb Pit which was also on a chain took care of a 900lb Moose that was charging it's owner. As for a coyote they are only dangerous if in a pack. They suck at fighting and most weigh less than 60lbs as they are not that big. I think I have written enough.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

John,

Thanks for the reply. I guess I didn't make myself clear. The Japanese dogmen own BOTH APBT and Tosa, since they fight in different classes(generally), and they prize both dogs equally. It was the owners themselves that said they'd take the Tosa in an "open" fight. I agree that many dogs can take wild game. Mastiffs and others of the type were used for Bull and Bear baiting fights. They also fought cougars, lions, and other wild game and won. There are also many fast running hounds that take wild deer on the fly, and the Rhodesian Ridgeback can fend off lions. But we can both agree these encounters are few and far between. I will agree, pound for pound, the APBT is probably the toughest. Which is to say a 60lb APBT would likely defeat a 60lb Tosa. However, in an "open" fight, the Tosa would take it. You have a book to support your claims. I have videos of fights from Japan. And interviews with dogmen. One of them stated in the light classes, the APBT vs. Tosa is generally 70-80% in favor of APBT. In the heaviest classes (which is still quite rare because there is no "honour" in a big dog beating a lighter dog) the ratio was "over 90%" victories for the Tosa. I do have vids of lighter Tosas beating APBT, and others of an APBT giving a heavier Tosa all it could handle. But it's ok if we disagree. I don't really like either dog myself, as they are generally too "dumb" for my taste. (too prey driven to listen properly in situations). I much prefer Shepherds. My dog is ScH I, CGC, CCD. Even as well trained as he is, he is sometimes too "hard" for my liking in some situations. Although he has never disobeyed us, it definitely possible. I could try to e-mail you a couple vids, but I'm not sure my e-mail account would allow it. (some are over 30+ megs). Shoot me a private message, and perhaps I'll burn some to a CD and mail it out. Again..I am still in awe of how truly massive this dog is. You really can't appreciate the size until you are standing near one. HUGE!!

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

The best dog my family ever owned was a half Rott, half blue healer.
He was the smartest, most obedient dog I have ever seen. My moms aunt and uncle raise/train australian shepards and were even impressed at the shear IQ of the dog. I have never seen a dog that could actually behave and think on its own instead of being told what to do most of the time. Not to mention he was a very intimidating watch dog. I rather have a dog that is obedient, and a good watch dog. I only need a dog to inform me of what is going on, then I can go from there.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

What's your degree in? Why are you so knowledgable about this stuff?

Click to expand...

I have Bachelors and Masters degree in biology. I also have an MD degree.

Alexander
President
Lincolns of Distinction

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

The best dog my family ever owned was a half Rott, half blue healer.
He was the smartest, most obedient dog I have ever seen. My moms aunt and uncle raise/train australian shepards and were even impressed at the shear IQ of the dog. I have never seen a dog that could actually behave and think on its own instead of being told what to do most of the time. Not to mention he was a very intimidating watch dog. I rather have a dog that is obedient, and a good watch dog. I only need a dog to inform me of what is going on, then I can go from there.

Click to expand...

Joe weve talked about this before but that is the exact combination my dog is.He is VERY smart, but stubborn sometimes.But I think thats my fault.I didnt train him well enough.Hes still young though, just over a year.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

Rocket,

I have been next to a few Tosas. In fact there is a breeder located in Georgia. One of very few outside Japan. Yes they are huge and great dogs. Maybe they don't have a good line of fighting Pits there because a line like Colby or watchdog would crush even the biggest Tosa. The books I have are wriiten by people that have seen first hand fights between to two. I will say that a great Tosa will beat a so so Pit, but not a top Pit. I have seen first hand a 45lb Pit just about kill a very aggresive Rott. This Rott had killed many other dogs in fights, but when put up against the Pit this 160lb Rott looked good at first. Then the Pit just took over the fight and the Pit had to be pulled off the Rott to spare its life. When that happened the Pit wanted to keep going, but the Rott wouldn't even look at it. I have 4 Pits right now and each is protection trained. It takes alot sometimes to get them to break out of a bite, but either of my two kids (8&5) can horse around with them without fear. I agree its good to disagree and thanks for reading my thoughts as well. I like Shepherds alot, but to find a good one it is hard atleast for me. German lines are the best and they are the ones that have the best use for home protection. Some pits are way to prey driven, but if you know what lines to look for then you can have one of the best protector out there. By the way have you been around any American Bulldogs? related to Pits just not as dog aggressvie and weight is heavier than a normal Pit, anywhere from 85-200lbs.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

John,

You sure are right about good German Shepherd lines being difficult to find in the US. That's why our dog came from Germany. There is maybe one or 2 places in the US where I would get a dog, but neither were breeding at the time. The Germans take their dog breeding super serious. I was shocked how serious they take it...but am sure I have a solid bloodline as a result. His Wright's Co-Efficient of inbreeding is very low. Here's a quick pic.

http://www.mark8.org/users/RRocket/Dax1.jpg

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

Ahhh, my #1 favorite picture. The one that made me fall in love with DAX.
Great way to start my day.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

That's a beautiful dog, Ron.

I don't know how you guys can stand to watch dog fights. It just seems too violent for me. I know that I'd never want to see my dog fighting. I'd be too scared for him. Especially since he couldn't beat up a cat.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

That is a great looking dog. I always tought the German bred dogs looked better the ones found hear. I only watched a few fights that were taped for a paper I wrote about the Histroy of Pit Bulls. I would NEVER fight a dog of any kind and don't think it is right to fight them, but fighting played a huge role in the history of a few breeds such as the Tosa and Pit. My dogs are used for home protection and weight pulling. I have thought about Sch. training, but don't know it would effective they would be because of the protection training they already have.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

John,

ScH is more than protection training...that's really only a very small part of it. It is about obedience, steadiness, agility, tracking, confidence. It's a great sport, and takes lots of time with pet and master.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

Well mine have all the above except for the tracking. Never worked with them on that one. At what age did your dog start training? My youngest pit is 2.

RE: Guard Dog anyone? *pics* they go cheap I hear...

At 16 weeks, he knew all the basic doggie commands. In verbal and sign language. By 10 months, he was very solid. I don't recall the first time he was on the sleeve...just under 2 years I think. You don't want to rush that part. Any dog will bite. They have to be confident doing it, which is the trick. He is more pet/protection now. We don't do any ScH with him anymore. I guess he's retired..LOL