This is interesting....

RE: This is interesting....

Pretty sad!!!! The thing that bothers me the most are all the people that say buy American, and I agree to a point, but why are Chevy,Ford,Mopar bulding these vehicles in Mexico and Canada ( no offense to either) but then you have Honda, Toyota, building their cars in the U.S.??? ::wtf:: I know here in ohio Honda is the largest manufacturing automotive co. Mabye quality of the worksmanship has something to do with this????? ( duh ) Damn our big three!!! Pathetic!!
 
RE: This is interesting....

Source: consumer reports.

I would like to know how they determine "reliability".
 
RE: This is interesting....

I'm curious about something... while the Japanese cars seem so reliable and others do not are the more reliable ones built in the USA or Japan? Has anyone ever done a survey as to what cars are most/least reliable or best/worst initial quality based on new ultra-modern USA plants versus the older traditional plants?

It would be interesting to know if the the USA built cars are better, it would show the world that American workers and workmanship are truly better.
 
RE: This is interesting....

a large portion of the japanese cars sold here are built here.

The quality difference comes in part from the differences betwee companies that are established in the US, and companies that are starting in the US. The Japanese are smart enough to build their plants down south, and avoid union labor. The American companies have long established plants in places like Detroit, where the members are all union. The UAW workers as a whole know they can screw off, do drugs, get drunk at lunch, perform poor quality work, and still keep their jobs. Plus the automakers have a large portion of their profits going to cover pensions and medical care for retirees, which is a problem that the japanese companies who've only opened up shop in the US comparatively recently don't have. And the US automakers also have an investment in the facilities. If they can use older tooling to make some of the mechanical parts of the vehicles, it saves them money. If a company doesn't have the tools already established, they can design parts using modern technology or outsource the part to a major supplier who can build a better one.
 
RE: This is interesting....

Lexus were always built in Japan until recently when they started to use a factory in Canada for the RX 330.
 
RE: This is interesting....

FWIW, I've heard Canadian Ford pickups rate higher than US Ford pickups. I've had a '96 Canadian F250, but my current 2002 F250 is from Louisville, KY. I couldn't really tell either way.
 
RE: This is interesting....

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
I'm curious about something... while the Japanese cars seem so reliable and others do not are the more reliable ones built in the USA or Japan? Has anyone ever done a survey as to what cars are most/least reliable or best/worst initial quality based on new ultra-modern USA plants versus the older traditional plants?It would be interesting to know if the the USA built cars are better, it would show the world that American workers and workmanship are truly better.
[/div]

Honestly, it’s the other way around. I've heard a lot of bad stories about BMW's built in the Carolina's. (Like cracking in Z3's Chasi, and other major issues)

It’s not because Americans cant built quality cars, that’s not that at all, but the Japanese employ a better quality control system. They invest heavily in that.

The manufacturing process for American and Japanese cars is very different, and the Japanese continue to be more efficient, and provide better quality. I would provide you with some clear examples in manufacturing assembles, but I have to run and make it for dinner. You can read about it in many management books, its not something I pulled up from another forum, or something I made up.

Maybe if ford spent billions on training their managers and employee's, things might improve.
 
RE: This is interesting....

Japanese design practices get credit for its reliable cars
By Charles Murray
EE Times


CHICAGO — Japanese design philosophies are responsible for the superior electrical and electronic reliability of Asian-made automobiles, automotive experts said after the Consumers Union released its latest vehicle-reliability survey earlier this month.


The results of the owners' survey, published in the April issue of Consumer Reports magazine, suggest that Asian-made autos exceed North American models and are far superior to European luxury cars in system reliability. Three Japanese nameplates — Acura, Infiniti and Lexus — made the list of vehicles with the most reliable electrical and electronic systems. Three German nameplates-Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz-ranked among the least reliable.


The philosophical difference that leads to such disparities is that "the heart and soul of the Japanese philosophy is the system, rather than the individual component. That's the opposite of the philosophy of American and German automakers," said David Cole, chairman of the Center of Automotive Research (Ann Arbor, Mich.), which did not take part in the study. "European and American manufacturers have a history of believing that perfect parts make perfect systems."


Even so, the problem may be less the parts themselves than the design and assembly processes that knit them together — a factor that would appear to favor a holistic design approach. When electronic systems fail, it's often not the fault of the microcontrollers, memories or other ICs, the Consumers Union and others said. Indeed, microprocessors have become exceptionally robust in recent years, according to the Consumers Union (Yonkers, N.Y.).


Rather, the source of problems is often traced back to the use of connectors in assembly. "We find a very high correlation between reliability and the number of connections made at the assembly plant," Cole said.


Some dashboard assemblies, he noted, have as many as 45 connections that need to be made in the factory; others have as few as three or four. It's no leap to conclude that the ones with more connections are more likely to be incorrectly assembled, and in fact that's the case, Cole said.


Japanese manufacturers have dominated the Consumer Reports system-reliability surveys because "they make an effort to develop a foolproof system, making sure the wires don't rub against sharp pieces of metal and connections go together with an audible snap, so that the line worker knows the connection has been made," said David Champion, director of testing at Consumers Union's automotive test facility (East Haddam, Conn.).


Cole of the Center of Automotive Research added that Japanese manufacturers have benefited from a slightly slower adoption rate for cutting-edge electronics, whereas competitors in the United States and particularly in Germany have been more aggressive in their adoption of high-tech features. "Through the school of hard knocks, the Japanese manufacturers have learned that sometimes it's better to be a little slower," he said.


Experts noted that the reliability struggles of European manufacturers are not new. For the past two decades, they said, reliability has been on the decline among European carmakers, while reliability has risen slightly in North America and dramatically in Japan.


Much as their American counterparts did in the 1970s, however, European automakers have proved slow to institute the changes needed to improve reliability.


"The European carmakers for some time have made the assumption that they own the quality game, always have and always will," Cole said. "But the data has shown repeatedly that's not true anymore."

Consumers Union engineers said that the Japanese Lexus and German BMW were found to be at opposite ends of the reliability spectrum not only in electronics but across the board-engines, transmissions, suspensions, exhaust, brakes and other areas. Based on surveys from approximately 675,000 respondents, they found that eight-year-old Lexus LS400s had fewer problems per hundred vehicles (41 per 100) than six-month-old BMW 7 Series vehicles (42 per 100).


According to Consumer Reports, the Lexus LS430 is currently priced at approximately $55,000, while the BMW 7 Series sells for $69,000 to $117,000.


Vehicles cited in the study for poor electrical and electronic reliability include the Audi A6, BMW 7 Series, Chevrolet Blazer, Ford Windstar, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Volvo 850 and Volkswagen Golf, among others. Consistently offering the best electrical and electronic reliability were the Acura Integra, Honda CR-V, Infiniti QX4 and Lexus LS400.

Consumers Union engineers said their experience in tearing down vehicles tells them that the causes of electrical and electronic malfunctions run the gamut from improperly installed wiring to bad connectors to faulty relays. Such problems can manifest themselves in the breakdown of all manner of automotive components, including window motors, starters, alternators, batteries, gauges, wipers, lights, air bags, fuel pumps and water pumps.


But Champion rejected the idea that more electronics results in more electronic problems, arguing that sufficient statistics exist to refute that claim. "Lexus, Acura and Infiniti have produced vehicles with more features and greater complexity, yet they seem to get it right."


Consumers Union engineers did acknowledge, however, that electrical and electronics still tend to be larger problem areas than more established technologies, such as body integrity or body hardware.
 
RE: This is interesting....

"Through the school of hard knocks, the Japanese manufacturers have learned that sometimes it's better to be a little slower,"

I think that what that means is that they copy other manufacturers technology once other manufacturers have it perfected. Very commendable.

I laugh everytime I hear the radio ad for the Lexus RX 330 SUV boasting about the articulating headlights. Tucker had that in 1948. With the price of the Lexus RX 330, maybe they should use the slogan, "yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices."

Alexander
President
Lincolns of Distinction
 
RE: This is interesting....

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
I think that what that means is that they copy other manufacturers technology once other manufacturers have it perfected. Very commendable.




You can also take that as they might not put a product out that is not perfected just to release " new technology " I know in my industry some manufacturers will release new equipment with the latest and greatest features before those features are ready to be released, and then 6 mo. or 1 year later another manufacturer will realease the same type of product that is improved as well as more reliable.

Most of these companies work with each other behind the scenes on the majority of features some release fetures before they are ready just to be the first to say they did it, and some have the same technology but wait a little bit longer because they know it will be a better product if it is perfected. Mabye that is just my field, but I would be under the impression that all fields in genral are like this including the automotive field.......But then again I might be wrong, or mabye I slept at a Holliday Inn Select last night :p :7

Carlo
 
RE: This is interesting....

One question...who did they poll?


Moe, you already know my little secret.


[a
Club 16 President/Founder
94 Black/Black M8
97 Toreador red/Lt. graphite LSC M8
V.P. GGM8​
 
RE: This is interesting....

I've personally toured the South Carolina BMW plant, here, while production was going on ; the quality control in evidence there was impeccable. I haven't heard any paticularly good or bad comments about the roadsters or the X5 suv built there. Several things that stood out at the end of the production line was that every single car\suv built is dyno'ed, then test driven on a road track behind the plant, before being released to the buyer. The body prep for painting was impressive, every panel personally inspected and adjusted prior to paint. They also only paint one color paint per week. All black vehicles, regardless of make, get painted in that week, all red in another week, etc.; they have a multi story\tiered chassis garage that probaly holds 100-200 vehicles. It's automated to park the cars in the correct order per paint color.
 
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