Lying Presidents

RE: Lying Presidents

Sadly, enlisting would not make a difference. It is not the troops fault...afterall, they are only following orders....no, the troubles are much deeper than that............Oh, and I did serve in the Armed Forces. Just not the American one. It was very memorable, and met many fine people..from Canada, and abroad. Trish's grandfather fought as an American in the Battle of Midway. My mom's husband is an American serviceman, as is his brothers. No..I have all the respect for those military people....
 
RE: Lying Presidents

The Project for the New American Century or PNAC as you mentioned it is truly nothing more than the lefts attempt to discredit this administration by calling them global hawks. America does not want to rule the world. America and this administration feels that it is in the best interests of the United States to pursue liberty and freedom for oppressed people throughout the world. As the richest and most powerful country in the world, it is encumbent upon us to try to lift up those less fortunate than us, to lend a helping hand, to help other people throw out the bad and bring in the good. How else are things going to change and who is going to change them? If everybody had the opportunity for freedom and the opportunity to use their God given talents to better themselves and their families, there would be alot less violence in this world.

'93 MonsterMark Project Car
Bryan
 
RE: Lying Presidents

Bryan, if there's truth to what you said, than I'm thoroughly ashamed. That our country worries more about the oppressed in other countries and doesn't look within itself first...

I think they use the freedom from oppression thing as a nice little bonus, but I don't know - do we really go around freeing everyone who wants to be free? And if it's so important to offer freedoms, why not just let them come here?
 
RE: Lying Presidents



I HAVE ONE THING TO SAY ABOUT THIS ENTIRE MATTER:

GET US THE HELL OUT OF THE UNITED NATIONS!!!!!!!!

Ive said this since the day we were stupid enough
to be conned into joining!!!!

Does ANYONE have problem with this?? Think about
it. Geeezzsz.... Let us loose.
 
RE: Lying Presidents


That our country worries more about the oppressed in other countries and doesn't look within itself first...

There are things within our country that sure can be improved upon, but our government as part of its policies does not oppress it's people. The opportunity is here. Some figure it out, some never will.

And if it's so important to offer freedoms, why not just let them come here?


We do. But in a legal organized way. How else would our population have more than doubled in my lifetime? Well immigration is a big part of it anyway. :)

They get on broken down rafts and try to get here from Cuba, they risk their lives by crowding into trucks to try to get here from Mexico and they will try to do most anything to come here from other parts of the world too.



http://members.tccoa.com/lastmrk/Images/lastmrk2.jpg
 
RE: Lying Presidents

Paul, I agree with you. But that's not what Bryan said. I agree there needs to be a balance, and we can't only look inwards, but we can't (and don't) worry about every oppressed person out there. Only the ones where we get some additional benefit. It'd be nice to think it's altruistic, but it's not - it's political.
 
RE: Lying Presidents



And btw Flamark:

How do you stay "within" the book? I have no doubt that if I
were still in LE, I would be in deep stuff.

When in doubt we used to drop the hammer. If a kid was
worth saving we would kick the crap out of him, and do it again
every time he would try us.

Every time I read about a cop shooting these days, I shudder.
My kids want to go into LE, andf I think its crazy now.
The best of luck to you my friend, and "Keep your head down, and
your powder dry. Jack
 
RE: Lying Presidents

Everybody that wants to succeed and has the will to succeed in this Country can. We are the land of opportunity. Like Paul said, you can only do so much. The opportunity is here, some people won't take advantage of it no matter what.

Yes, America needs to spread Democracy throughout the rest of the world. People all over the world deserve the same rights as you and I have to go to sleep in peace, with food in your belly, and have a future that you yourself control when you wake up.

'93 MonsterMark Project Car
Bryan
 
RE: Lying Presidents

Everybody that wants to succeed and has the will to succeed in this Country can

Uh oh...

That is the biggest piece of B.S. that I have EVER heard! Not everyone in this country has the right to succeed. My parents have worked their butts off for 30+ years to give us the life we have and deserve. When they went into the bar business and someone burned it down because my parents kicked their drug pushers out, where was the United States government then? My parents couldn't get a loan to help rebuild the bar because of some real big crooks, but almost anyone who steps foot into this country from another country's border can get an INTEREST-FREE loan to start a business, then take over cities and almost every business in the area. Not to mention any specific ethnicities, but in the area I live there is a vast number of ________'s and all because they got loans from OUR government to start a business. Where's my parent's money, huh? Where's the money that belongs to United States citizens????? We pay thousands every year but don't see it...that sucks.
 
RE: Lying Presidents



Apparently your parents had the balls to keep on trying.

Thats our way.

If things get tough we work harder.

Touth times dont last, Tough people do. Sounds like they
left or will leave a tough job for you.\
Are you up to it? I sure hope so. Sounds like they did, and
without whinning. :) Jack

No one ever promised you a free lunch. I never had one,
and would never expect or want one.
Keep on keepin on Scott, It'll make a better man of you.
 
RE: Lying Presidents

Fuz... It was 3 years since the fire on July 4th. Mom hasn't given up, dad sort of has. This whole thing has been held up in court since almost the day after it happened. I've lost hope, but haven't given up.

It's a long, long story which I will not go into, but let's just say money talks and bullshit walks. ... yes, I watched Twins yesterday.

Scott
 
RE: Lying Presidents

Scott, call your folks up tonight and have them look up the definition of the term 'insurance'. It is a hardly used and esoteric convention, but it can be rather handy to certain people...
 
RE: Lying Presidents

The Project for the New American Century or PNAC as you mentioned it is truly nothing more than the lefts attempt to discredit this administration by calling them global hawks. America does not want to rule the world.

How in the world is PNAC "the lefts attempt to discredit this administration by calling them global hawks"? From their own [a href="http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm"]policy statement[/a] written in 1997:

"We need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles."

It seems pretty clear to me what they're trying to say. Take a look at the list of signers at the bottom. How many of those people are now members of the Bush administration or are closely tied to it?

Donald Rumsfeld was one of the signers of this 1998 letter to Clinton urging regime change in Iraq:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

It has been reported that immediately following the attacks of 9/11, Rummy called for the United States to attack Iraq first, even though there was no evidence (and still isn't) linking Saddam with the attacks.

So it cannot be denied that Rummy and the rest of the neocons at PNAC have had a hard-on for Saddam for quite some time. The real question is how far those same people, who now hold high positions in the Bush administration, would go to realize that goal. It's already been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that much of the "intelligence" Bush touted about the danger Saddam posed to the U.S. was overstated, flawed, or outright fabricated (by someone). It absolutely defies belief that they were unaware how faulty some of it was. What is more believable, given their past position on the matter, is that they used anything and everything they could get their hands on, no matter how weak, to persuade the American people to get on board. And they knowingly and intentionally ignored and hid information that would have brought their faulty "evidence" into question.

In other words, they had already decided to go to war with Iraq, and then picked and chose the evidence to support it.

For God's sake, it was Cheney who sent CIA agents to Niger to check out the supposed uranium deals with Iraq. That was in early 2002. The agents came to the quick conclusion that the documents in question were forgeries. Yet the Bush administration continued to push the Niger-Iraq connection regardless. As late as January of this year, Bush declared in the State of the Union Address that "Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa". Do any of you seriously believe Cheney was not made aware of the conclusion that the documents were faked? Please. And what about Bush? Was he kept in the dark (plausible deniability), or did he know it was BS too? I don't know. But it's plain as day that Cheney and Rumsfeld had already made up their minds long before they were even in office.

OK, great. Iraq has been "liberated" from a sadistic dictator. What angers me is that so many people believe the president trumped up the evidence, yet still believe we did the right thing. So we were lied to, but it's OK because Saddam was a bad guy. Do the ends really justify the means, even if the means are misleading or outright lying to the American public?

Even if WMDs are found, it doesn't take away the fact that we were given bum information in the first place. That's a critical point. The most critical of all.


Yes, America needs to spread Democracy throughout the rest of the world. People all over the world deserve the same rights as you and I have to go to sleep in peace, with food in your belly, and have a future that you yourself control when you wake up.

What if those people don't WANT our brand of democracy? Do we force it on them? Didn't Rummy say, when asked about the Iraqis calling for an Iranian-style theocracy, "That ain't gonna happen"? Why not? If that's what the people want, shouldn't they have it? Or could it be that "democracy" in the neocon vernacular is really another word for western-style capitalism? Does anyone here truly believe that's not what this is about?
 
RE: Lying Presidents

"We need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles." It seems pretty clear to me what they're trying to say.

For my benefit and those others tuning in, what is it that is pretty clear to you about what they are saying?



"Even if WMDs are found, it doesn't take away the fact that we were given bum information in the first place. That's a critical point. The most critical of all."

Make up your mind Mark. If we find the WMD's, according to you it doesn't matter because we used trumped up intel? Hummm. Maybe it wouldn't be so trumped up after all.

Or could it be that "democracy" in the neocon vernacular is really another word for western-style capitalism?

Who in the world doesn't want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Lets agree that there are religious factions of people that don't. I would argue that the vast majority would.

Anybody that has a child wants that child to grow up with a life that is better than the one they had. I think that is human nature. Countries and people all over the world are embracing western-style capitalism. It is the only system that has proven to lift people up. Take off the shackles of repression and people will work harder and work to get ahead if they have hope. Without hope, you will see despair.

Has capitalism or socialism gained strength in the world in the last fifty years? I think our way of life is superior, capitalism is superior, our quality of life is superior. Why not bring that system to the rest of the world. Look at the Far East, Indonesia, India, etc. Look at Western Europe after WWII and now finally Eastern-Europe. Tell me capitalism has not helped lift people up. It is coming to Africa and South America. Yes, it will be tough to "convert" the religious zealots but look what is happening in UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, and many other Middle Eastern countries that are slowing embracing capitalism. It works, with the vast majority of these people becoming peace loving folks.

The most dangerous man in the world is a man who has nothing to lose. I never gave it a second thought about getting in a fight when I was young and single. I had no responsibilities. Now I have a wife, kids, business, house. I choose to walk away from most now. The risks of losing what you have is too great. Same goes for life. If you are living in a shack, barely eating, with only the clothes on your back, I say you are a pretty dangerous person. I think capitalism and the opportunities that will manifest themselves if you embrace it cures that.

'93 MonsterMark Project Car
Bryan
 
RE: Lying Presidents

JD - I was thinking the same thing - shoot, a fire would be a BLESSING to most small business owners - bigger and better! (provided no one got hurt, of course)

I take it they owned it outright, because otherwise wouldn't the morgage-holder require fire/flood/etc insurance?

Perhaps for a different thread, but it is a bit of a stretch to be calling yourselves victims of the US government's inability to provide zero-interest loans for business growth - I don't know, if the dry cleaners down the street here burned down, and they didn't have it insured - not sure the good ol' USG would be writing another check for them.

Don't take it personal - I totally hear where you're coming from with the loans for 'out-of-towners,' but a fire should have caused no problems at all, other than a grand re-opening extravaganza after the insurance check was cashed.

Can we get the whole story? Is it a rental? Lease? Flaky landlord? Crazy mayor? Termites?
 
RE: Lying Presidents


Has capitalism or socialism gained strength in the world in the last fifty years? I think our way of life is superior, capitalism is superior, our quality of life is superior. Why not bring that system to the rest of the world.


No offense. That statement is arrogant and pompous. The fact that you would overlook the fact that our own system is flawed and say that our system is better than any that exists or that could be created is wrong. I agree with some of what you are saying in theory, but what the PNAC wants is governments in place all over the world that will help Americans. The fact that they would be "helping" other people would be secondary, and my guess is they really don't care about that part of it.
 
RE: Lying Presidents

"No offense. That statement is arrogant and pompous.

I guess I have been known for being arrogant and pompous (redundant), which sometimes is simply confused for being confident and strong-willed (redundant).:p

"The fact that you would overlook the fact that our own system is flawed and say that our system is better than any that exists or that could be created is wrong."

I never said that could be created. I challenged you to show me a better one that the world should emulate.

"what the PNAC wants is governments in place all over the world that will help Americans.

As an American, is this a bad thing?

"The fact that they would be "helping" other people would be secondary.

In order to be in a position to take care of others, you need to be able to take care of yourself first. See, it is the surplus of goods and services that allows you to "donate" to those less fortunate. Sounds like you advocate that we as Americans give up enough of our standard of living so we even out the playing field with the rest of the world. The world tried that. It was called socialism and it doesn't work. So the world is trying something else.

I have one of the most liberal cousins in the U.S. He lived in co-ops and all that. A real free spirit. Was happy to co-exist on the poverty line because his conscience (I believe) prevented himself from fully taking advantage of life. That wouldn't be fair to others to have more. You know something, the guy woke up one day and said I'm going to look out for myself. Oh, coincidentally, that was about the same time he was acquiring a wife and child at the age of 40! Funny how capitalism works, isn't it?

'93 MonsterMark Project Car
Bryan
 
RE: Lying Presidents

I never said that could be created. I challenged you to show me a better one that the world should emulate.

Off the top of my head, I'd say Sweden's socialist system; though I don't agree with nationally sponsored religions. I don't see a perfect system, but I would not say ours is first on the list.

As an American, is this a bad thing?

No, as a human it's a bad thing to put our interests as a whole ahead of any other people; it's the same as saying "we're better than you because we're Americans," without any other reason.

In order to be in a position to take care of others, you need to be able to take care of yourself first. See, it is the surplus of goods and services that allows you to "donate" to those less fortunate. Sounds like you advocate that we as Americans give up enough of our standard of living so we even out the playing field with the rest of the world.

I would agree with your statement, but I see one fatal error. You assume that what we are trying to do is help others, and I don't see anywhere that this is one of our current goals. If we are contributing to any other country's welfare, it is secondary and incidental. I am not advocating giving up a standard of living in this argument, we could go about that one later if you like. What I am advocating is not placing governments in other countries solely for our benefit. Especcially when we lie to people and tell them what we are doing is for the other countries benefit, when really we are just looking out for #1.


I think our current capitalist system is flawed. I see no perfect government in place. I don't think we should force our views and systems onto anyone who doesn't request them from us. We as Americans pride ourselves on freedom, yet force others to live the way we want, not because it benefits them, but us? Every person is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, not just Americans.
 
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