No start issues.... and a bad sound!

U

unity

Registered
Hey guys,

My 96 has had an issue for a long time, mostly developed this winter. IN colder conditions its worse, a lot worse. But its still happens about twice a week or more.

The car turns over fine, but wont fire up. Crank position sensor you say? I say you are wrong! hehe I can crank all day long like a hamster on a wheel and it wont fire up. But as soon as I shot in some starting fluid, it fires up - every time. I can actually tell within the first couple revolutions if it will start up or not, so instead of trying - and flooding the engine - I just spray some fluid in, not much.

I also prime the fuel pump every time I get in out of habit.

It happens when the engine is cold or hot. New filter, new pressure regulator, cleaned MAF, new crank and cam position sensors. Fuel is defiantly squirting in.

Thoughts are fuel pump, but it primes fine every time. Maybe a leaking injector, but would one result in a no-start? Tried the crank position trick may times, but only a shot of starting fluid gets it going once it wont start.

Battery system is fine. This happened before and after the chip, tried other programs.

My concern is that only the starting fluid seems to start it up, so it looks like everything else is fine. Premium Shell fuel only from varying Shell stations. No water in the gas as far as I know.....

MY BIGGEST concern is the "diesel truck" noise it sometimes makes upon start up, without the starting or with it. Its the same noise a diesel truck or semi makes when you first start it up, that loud knocking noise. This concerns me greatly!
 
If it were any engine here at work, our mechanics would do a compression test. Your symptoms are indicative of low compression.

That diesel noise is not good.
 
There is also a Cam Position Sensor. You may give that a shot as well. No codes on the OBD II I presume?
 
The CAM is for the injectors, and they are sure firing. Once I flooded the engine, and a few time I did pull the plugs to make sure they were "wet".

There is not even an HINT of combustion when the car does this, if it were a flakey cam a few injectors would fire here and there... and the plugs may not get wetted.

I thought of compression too, but the car pulls like a bat out of hell. But I will take your advice and when I replace the front end this weekend, I will have my friend take a look. I did notice the idle has been not up to par. Seeing at the engine now has 17k on it, I would hope its not compression!
 
Unity.........you say you don't want to "flood" the car, but then you squirt starting fluid in it to get it to start.

So, obviously this is FUEL related because if it was Spark related it still wouldn't start on Starting Fluid.

Well...I was looking at AllData for the ICM, but it says there isn't one. I thought the Ignition control module was on the drivers side strut tower, but it says that the PCM has the ICM integrated into it. This will control BOTH spark and FUEL, so if you're having fuel issues and you've already replaced the CPS, I thought the ICM would be next....but unless you've got a spare computer, we should dig deeper.

PURPOSE
The Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor detects the position of the camshaft when piston number one is at a specific top dead center point of its compression stroke. A signal is then supplied to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and used for synchronizing the firing of sequential fuel injectors. The input circuit is referred to as the Cylinder Identification (CID) input or circuit.

If the Cam sensor FAILS intermittantly.....its not going to fire the injectors "hit and miss", so when you shoot some starting fluid into the engine and it startes on that, the car WILL still run with a faulty CMS.

You said you've replaced it.....how soon?
 
unity said:
The CAM is for the injectors, and they are sure firing. Once I flooded the engine, and a few time I did pull the plugs to make sure they were "wet".
Click to expand...

I misunderstood your previous post thinking you had replaced the CPS.

The cam position controls the TIMING of the injectors, much like the crank sensor controls the timing of the spark. The engine can run without a CID signal once started. Your ether shots are evidently starting the engine and without the CID it doesn't matter once it's started.
 
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Wow J, thats some great info. Appreciate it greatly. I have ODB II, so yup - they are integrated - just a PCM.

From what you describe, maybe it is indeed the CAM position sensor. It was new when I put the engine in. I will do a compression test and get a new sensor and see what happens.

From what I read, a faulty CPS will still allow a car to run - case in point, my old engine have a cracked harness connector to the CPS, yet it started and ran fine even when it slid off - I knew when it did as I always got a CE light. But its worth a shot, its a cheap part I will be at a shop all weekend to do stuff like this.

EDIT: I should add that the car NEVER starts quickly like my 95 did or this 96 did before the new engine, it usually fires up (if it does) after several cranks. I think I will replace the cam position sensor and put some new plugs in there since they need to come out for the compression test.
 
HA, posted at the same time driller. Its starting to make sense and you two may be on to something.
 
Thanks and no problem!

Thats true....OBD2, so maybe I have that ICM on my strut tower(always noticed it because you have to remove it to access the strut mount nuts)?

I would swap the CMS and see what happends....we all know how much of a pain it is to swap plugs, haha. I don't think you're going to find anything not normal with the compression test, you'd be having a ton of other issues, like a misfire or something. Not sure if the CMS will cause a slow start, but we'll find out, haha.
 
Really?! Ok......but if he didn't have spark, it still wouldn't run(or stay running). If he wasn't getting spark during cranking, I'd suspect a bad CPS, but the car still wouldn't stay running with a bad CPS, because the PCM wouldn't know that he's even trying to start the car.

Also....I think it would take a high concentrate of starting fluid to actually fire all the cylinders.

Is this the same for Ether starting fluid, or is that what you're referring too?
 
I'm lost with that comment Wayne.

Ether is the starting fluid that you use for diesels.......

http://www.sprayproducts.com/starting-fluid.php

Starting fluid is a mixture of diethyl ether, volatile hydrocarbons (heptane, butane and propane), dimethyl ether (as a propellant), and carbon dioxide. Often useful when starting direct injected diesel engines or lean burn spark engines running on alcohol fuel. Starting fluid works due to the low autoignition temperature of diethyl ether, 360F (182C).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starting_fluid
 
J said:
I'm lost with that comment Wayne.

Ether is the starting fluid that you use for diesels.......

http://www.sprayproducts.com/starting-fluid.php

Starting fluid is a mixture of diethyl ether, volatile hydrocarbons (heptane, butane and propane), dimethyl ether (as a propellant), and carbon dioxide. Often useful when starting direct injected diesel engines or lean burn spark engines running on alcohol fuel. Starting fluid works due to the low autoignition temperature of diethyl ether, 360F (182C).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starting_fluid
Click to expand...

Ugh...wai a vimut vhile I pake my voop oup ov my mouf...ah, much better now.

I was a first class fool on this one J. Let me apologize for my complete ignorance regarding starting fluid...I've never dealt with it before. I assumed "Ether" was a typo.

I think I'll ban myself for this one...
 
J said:
Really?! Ok......but if he didn't have spark, it still wouldn't run(or stay running). If he wasn't getting spark during cranking, I'd suspect a bad CPS, but the car still wouldn't stay running with a bad CPS, because the PCM wouldn't know that he's even trying to start the car.

Also....I think it would take a high concentrate of starting fluid to actually fire all the cylinders.

Is this the same for Ether starting fluid, or is that what you're referring too?
Click to expand...

Let me clarify... in my post I refer to CPS as the Cam Position Sensor. I've always used CKS as the acronymn for Crank Sensor.

I meant without the Cam sensor it would stay running. You are correct that without the Crank sensor it would not stay running even started under ether or starting fluid.

Ether and starting fluid are the same in my work. Old Detroit diesels are notorious for hard cold starts and drillers tend to use a lot of 'ether' in the winter time. Our mechanics strongly discourage this of course since they are the ones who rebuild the engines. Yes, you can start and run an engine on starting fluid alone - even with no spark.

I don't think I would ever use ether(or starting fluid) on an aluminum block engine.
 
Lol Wayne....no biggie :D I was confused because I thought I missed out on a joke or something, lol!

Driller.....I knew exactly what you were talking about, people use different terms as they learn them. I used CMS for the Cam Sensor because the first thing that came to mind was the Subaru I was working on kept throwing that code, I was like "wtf is a CMS?" Haha. In your abbreviation you didn't include "position" but I still knew. On our cars they are referred to as CMP sensors(they don't include "sensor" in the abbreviation), so I was wrong too, haha.

PURPOSE
The Camshaft Position (CMP) sensor detects the position of the camshaft when piston number one is at a specific top dead center point of its compression stroke. A signal is then supplied to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and used for synchronizing the firing of sequential fuel injectors. The input circuit is referred to as the Cylinder Identification (CID) input or circuit.

PURPOSE
The Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor is the primary sensor for ignition information to the integrated Ignition Control Module (ICM) .

From what I've been told, you're NOT supposed to use anything BUT Ether on diesels because it damages the engines, like your mechanics said. Does this stop anyone....nope. :) They make engine specific(gas/diesel) starting fluids, but as far as I've heard, ANYTHING used for a diesel engine is bad. I know that Ether is bad for newer cars because of the coating it leaves behind, so I just use small doses of highly flammable brake parts cleaner to diagnose "no start" conditions because it evaporates super fast, doesn't leave a coating behind and it doesn't take much to start.
 
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you shouldn't use ether starting fluid on a diesel.
JP the mechanics are correct.

using ether in a diesel will blow the ring lands off the pistons if you aren't very careful.. or unless your really lucky.

Try this, next time... STEP AWAY FROM THE ETHER.... and grab a can of good ole "trusty door ajar fixing" WD 40!

WD 40 is great starting fluid for diesels, because it's not explosively volatile like ether and it has lubricating properties UNLIKE ether.

Just a tip from the "far side".

the diesel sound from unity's car is probably preignition detonation caused from the ether igniting before the spark plug fires, thus slamming the intake valve closed, which is bad as well.
 
When I was on the north slope of alaska, we left the diesels running 24/7 for weeks at a time..

In the event one would have to be turned off.. it would take nearly a half a can of WD 40 to get the damned things to fire back off
 
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