ABS
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
RE: ABS
I had fun with this thread. First it was amusing how a question on the ABS transformed to a discussion on toasting tranny fluid.
Regardless, my curiousity was piqued, and with the help of Excel, I graphed the well accepted relationship between transmission fluid temperature and transmission life. Given the theorem that for every 20 degree drop in temperature of the transmission fluid, the transmission life is doubled, a parallel theorem can be made that for every 20 degree rise in temperature of the transmission fluid, the transmission life is halved. Follow along.
One source lists transmission temperature vs. transmission life as degrees vs. miles. Starting with 175 degrees equating to 100,000 miles. Plotting such published data, I arrived at a exponential equation to describe the relationship of transmission fluid temperature and the transmission life in miles. This equation is as follows:
Y=4E+07e^(-0.0347X) ... where X is the fluid temperature in degrees F and Y is transmission life in miles.
Now I extrapolated the data from the equation to arrive at what temperature would the transmission fluid need to be for the life expectancy to be one second. Converting miles to time at 60 MPH, I found the transmission temperature would need to rise to 623 degrees F for the transmission to be wasted in a one second burnout.
The only problem is that the flash point of Mercon V ATF is approximately 350 degrees F. So how long could you do a burnout assuming you could keep the fluid just under the flash point?
It turns out to be about 213 miles!
I had fun with this thread. First it was amusing how a question on the ABS transformed to a discussion on toasting tranny fluid.
Regardless, my curiousity was piqued, and with the help of Excel, I graphed the well accepted relationship between transmission fluid temperature and transmission life. Given the theorem that for every 20 degree drop in temperature of the transmission fluid, the transmission life is doubled, a parallel theorem can be made that for every 20 degree rise in temperature of the transmission fluid, the transmission life is halved. Follow along.
One source lists transmission temperature vs. transmission life as degrees vs. miles. Starting with 175 degrees equating to 100,000 miles. Plotting such published data, I arrived at a exponential equation to describe the relationship of transmission fluid temperature and the transmission life in miles. This equation is as follows:
Y=4E+07e^(-0.0347X) ... where X is the fluid temperature in degrees F and Y is transmission life in miles.
Now I extrapolated the data from the equation to arrive at what temperature would the transmission fluid need to be for the life expectancy to be one second. Converting miles to time at 60 MPH, I found the transmission temperature would need to rise to 623 degrees F for the transmission to be wasted in a one second burnout.
The only problem is that the flash point of Mercon V ATF is approximately 350 degrees F. So how long could you do a burnout assuming you could keep the fluid just under the flash point?
It turns out to be about 213 miles!
RE: ABS
I've seen the mpegs some of these people posted and the photos. They weren't doing 1 second power brakes nor had they done it only once in their lifetime. I think your formula is a little off but close enough The tranny will live a bit longer than the 213 miles but that's just my opinion. I don't believe the flash point will be reached for all the oil in the tranny simply because oil is an insulator but enough will be damaged to destroy the lubricity and dramatically shorten the transmissions life. As to the ABS portion, I thought that was covered in my original post. If the front tires are stationary and the rear tires are moving the ABS system sees a problem. If you override the system it complains.
I should also add that I am biased because I have to fix these peoples cars. I hear the "I only did it the one time" excuse a lot then open up what was a new tranny and see incredible damage. I've seen tranny oil go from healthy pinkish red to carmel colored in a week by drivers that "only did it once". Fixing intentional abuse _has_ tainted my outlook so I may sound harsh, in reality I treat this as simply a discussion of no moment. I think Jerry posted some info on trans temp and its corrolation with trans life on another web site. I wish he'd post more often as I find his insight interesting. He makes me think and I like that.
I had done some backyard testing a few years back with a car that was used as a test mule. Plain old Chevy 350 engine, TH350 trans and 24K gvw B&M tranny cooler in conjunction with the in radiator tranny cooler in the big block radiator. Tranny had a mild B&M shift kit and the engine was a mild 4v model. Using a B&M trans temp gauge on the remote trans oil filter the normal operating temperature of the transmission was 180 degrees in 80 degree weather. Water temperature was a consistent 180 degrees regardless of outside air temperature. Converter was a stock 1800 rpm 12" model. Fan was a very large heavy duty clutch type. This car got seriously abused to test loads of parts etc before the parts etc would be allowed on the real cars. It was a lot of fun and had a boat load of tricks I kind of miss that car.
Power braking the car for 5 seconds raised the transmission oil temperature to 220 degrees. The tranny needed to be driven for about 5 minutes at highway speeds to cool back down to normal. Power braking for 10 seconds raised the tranny temp to 250 degrees and took about 10 minutes to bring it back down to normal. Not too bad but not something you want to do too ofter either.
For the last one I did it drag style. Power braking for 5 seconds, rolling forward about 10' with the tires still spinning to simulate the tire warm up then bringing the car back to a full stop, doing another short power brake to launch the car then releasing the brake but maintaining the burn out for as far as it would go then continuing down the quarter mile under full throttle for a full speed run for the duration of the 1/4, lifting at the finish line and bringing the car back down to return lane speed. Trans temperature hit 280 degrees and took about twenty minutes of high speed driving to bring it back down to normal.
In those few runs the engine water temperature never went over 190 degrees. Since the trans temperature was taken out near the radiator the temperature seen on the gauge is undoubtedly lower than the internal transmission oil temperature. However, for less than 20 seconds of hard use it still hit a very high temperature and took a long time to come back down again. MK VIIIs don't have nearly the cooling capacity of that test car so the Lincoln temps may be worse and it will definitely take a MK VIII much longer to cool back down again. I also took the trouble to cool the tranny back down again whereas many people do not. If that oil pump isn't spinning that oil isn't being cooled, it's being cooked.
I don't expect anyone to believe this stuff. Try it yourself, it isn't expensive or hard to do. You just need a trans oil temp gauge and a few moments of track time. Don't take my word for it, you don't know me from Adam.
I've seen the mpegs some of these people posted and the photos. They weren't doing 1 second power brakes nor had they done it only once in their lifetime. I think your formula is a little off but close enough
The tranny will live a bit longer than the 213 miles but that's just my opinion. I don't believe the flash point will be reached for all the oil in the tranny simply because oil is an insulator but enough will be damaged to destroy the lubricity and dramatically shorten the transmissions life. As to the ABS portion, I thought that was covered in my original post. If the front tires are stationary and the rear tires are moving the ABS system sees a problem. If you override the system it complains.I should also add that I am biased because I have to fix these peoples cars. I hear the "I only did it the one time" excuse a lot then open up what was a new tranny and see incredible damage. I've seen tranny oil go from healthy pinkish red to carmel colored in a week by drivers that "only did it once". Fixing intentional abuse _has_ tainted my outlook so I may sound harsh, in reality I treat this as simply a discussion of no moment. I think Jerry posted some info on trans temp and its corrolation with trans life on another web site. I wish he'd post more often as I find his insight interesting. He makes me think and I like that.
I had done some backyard testing a few years back with a car that was used as a test mule. Plain old Chevy 350 engine, TH350 trans and 24K gvw B&M tranny cooler in conjunction with the in radiator tranny cooler in the big block radiator. Tranny had a mild B&M shift kit and the engine was a mild 4v model. Using a B&M trans temp gauge on the remote trans oil filter the normal operating temperature of the transmission was 180 degrees in 80 degree weather. Water temperature was a consistent 180 degrees regardless of outside air temperature. Converter was a stock 1800 rpm 12" model. Fan was a very large heavy duty clutch type. This car got seriously abused to test loads of parts etc before the parts etc would be allowed on the real cars. It was a lot of fun and had a boat load of tricks
I kind of miss that car.Power braking the car for 5 seconds raised the transmission oil temperature to 220 degrees. The tranny needed to be driven for about 5 minutes at highway speeds to cool back down to normal. Power braking for 10 seconds raised the tranny temp to 250 degrees and took about 10 minutes to bring it back down to normal. Not too bad but not something you want to do too ofter either.
For the last one I did it drag style. Power braking for 5 seconds, rolling forward about 10' with the tires still spinning to simulate the tire warm up then bringing the car back to a full stop, doing another short power brake to launch the car then releasing the brake but maintaining the burn out for as far as it would go then continuing down the quarter mile under full throttle for a full speed run for the duration of the 1/4, lifting at the finish line and bringing the car back down to return lane speed. Trans temperature hit 280 degrees and took about twenty minutes of high speed driving to bring it back down to normal.
In those few runs the engine water temperature never went over 190 degrees. Since the trans temperature was taken out near the radiator the temperature seen on the gauge is undoubtedly lower than the internal transmission oil temperature. However, for less than 20 seconds of hard use it still hit a very high temperature and took a long time to come back down again. MK VIIIs don't have nearly the cooling capacity of that test car so the Lincoln temps may be worse and it will definitely take a MK VIII much longer to cool back down again. I also took the trouble to cool the tranny back down again whereas many people do not. If that oil pump isn't spinning that oil isn't being cooled, it's being cooked.
I don't expect anyone to believe this stuff. Try it yourself, it isn't expensive or hard to do. You just need a trans oil temp gauge and a few moments of track time. Don't take my word for it, you don't know me from Adam.
RE: ABS
One problem Bill, I don't think comparing the operating temps of a 350 TurboHydromatic correlate well with a 4R70W. Regardless, I was really trying to stretch the limits of applied math to automotive technology... it was an interesting exercise... keeps your mind sharp.
It's been a while since I had full instrumentation in a passenger vehicle, but I recall consistently seeing 200 plus degrees all the time for auto transmission temps. I don't think I would worry so much till 225 or higher IMHO, particularly when Mercon V is specifically made to handle higher temperatures. and resist thermal breakdown. Now you got me shopping for pods and temp guages.
I just hope those who follow this thread and read your words of wisdom, ask themselves what temperatures their tranny is running WITHOUT a transmission cooler!
BTW, the ABS explanation makes sense to me.
One problem Bill, I don't think comparing the operating temps of a 350 TurboHydromatic correlate well with a 4R70W.
Regardless, I was really trying to stretch the limits of applied math to automotive technology... it was an interesting exercise... keeps your mind sharp.It's been a while since I had full instrumentation in a passenger vehicle, but I recall consistently seeing 200 plus degrees all the time for auto transmission temps. I don't think I would worry so much till 225 or higher IMHO, particularly when Mercon V is specifically made to handle higher temperatures. and resist thermal breakdown. Now you got me shopping for pods and temp guages.
I just hope those who follow this thread and read your words of wisdom, ask themselves what temperatures their tranny is running WITHOUT a transmission cooler!
BTW, the ABS explanation makes sense to me.
RE: ABS
You're right, the TH350 is not directly comparable to the 4R70W. Also that test car had a lot of additional work done to it to cool it down faster. MK VIIIs have looser converters until lock up occurs and their cooling system is minimal. I posted the info to give people an idea of what happens temperature wise in your transmission. The tranny is not a glamour item so it's often neglected. It would be nice if someone did a similar impromptu test on their car and reported their findings. Nothing elaborate, just watch the gauge and take note of what happens. In a bone stock passenger car the temps will be higher and it'll take longer to cool down. I do not expect anyone to take my word for it.
I have not added instumentation to my MK VIII yet. All the gauges are here but I haven't really looked into how I want to mount them as other projects are taking up my time and energy.
I like that you took the time to extropolate that data Driller Thinking is a dangerous occupation we could all spend more time doing just for the thrill of discovery.
You're right, the TH350 is not directly comparable to the 4R70W. Also that test car had a lot of additional work done to it to cool it down faster. MK VIIIs have looser converters until lock up occurs and their cooling system is minimal. I posted the info to give people an idea of what happens temperature wise in your transmission. The tranny is not a glamour item so it's often neglected. It would be nice if someone did a similar impromptu test on their car and reported their findings. Nothing elaborate, just watch the gauge and take note of what happens. In a bone stock passenger car the temps will be higher and it'll take longer to cool down. I do not expect anyone to take my word for it.
I have not added instumentation to my MK VIII yet. All the gauges are here but I haven't really looked into how I want to mount them as other projects are taking up my time and energy.
I like that you took the time to extropolate that data Driller
Thinking is a dangerous occupation we could all spend more time doing just for the thrill of discovery.RE: ABS
I agree, never thought about tranny temps in regard to power-braking.
I really would like to see it with gauges on a Ford tranny, and I think Strapp may be our man, he has a digital trans temp gauge - it's not that I don't believe you, but I went out and smelled my tranny fluid (which was changed 5k miles ago and have done 2 power brakes, about 10 seconds a piece since) and it's perfectly red, smells fine. Now that doesn't tell me the lubricity of the fluid which remains, but for the Jiffy Lube tech method of checking transmission fluid, looks good, right level, smells fine.
I don't disagree that it's hard on fluid to do that - unless the TC is locked up, all the power to the rear wheels is being sent via fluid coupling, not via a hard, physical connection. (I had to re-read that a couple times to make sure it sorta made sense)
Hopefully Strapp picks up this thread and offers us a power brake test with that video camera of his in the cockpit. And then we can all pitch in for a tranny fluid change for him. All in good fun folks. Let's not make it a flame war - and since my car and no one else's is under warrranty anymore (except for a couple) there'll be no shop visits claiming our smoked transmission should be covered by Ford, therefore no pissed-off techs. All is good.
I agree, never thought about tranny temps in regard to power-braking.
I really would like to see it with gauges on a Ford tranny, and I think Strapp may be our man, he has a digital trans temp gauge - it's not that I don't believe you, but I went out and smelled my tranny fluid (which was changed 5k miles ago and have done 2 power brakes, about 10 seconds a piece since) and it's perfectly red, smells fine. Now that doesn't tell me the lubricity of the fluid which remains, but for the Jiffy Lube tech method of checking transmission fluid, looks good, right level, smells fine.
I don't disagree that it's hard on fluid to do that - unless the TC is locked up, all the power to the rear wheels is being sent via fluid coupling, not via a hard, physical connection. (I had to re-read that a couple times to make sure it sorta made sense)
Hopefully Strapp picks up this thread and offers us a power brake test with that video camera of his in the cockpit. And then we can all pitch in for a tranny fluid change for him.
All in good fun folks. Let's not make it a flame war - and since my car and no one else's is under warrranty anymore (except for a couple) there'll be no shop visits claiming our smoked transmission should be covered by Ford, therefore no pissed-off techs. All is good.