Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
What Wayne has posted is pretty factual. There’s been a lot of controversy within the past 4 – 5 years over the TCs by many. There were others that tried to use the Kevlar but found it to only work for them in all out race designs that made poor street setups. J your TC looks to be an older Sonnax kit. The kit doesn’t support the Kevlar though, that’s something the actual builder has to come up with. Because of this each builder pretty much has to spend the time testing and developing this setup. Most gave up and stayed with the high carbon type friction material which worked out better for most street/strip applications. And the high carbon material is much better than any of the paper backed materials used by the factories and PI.
J you are correct in that TCs are not cheap. These are one of those items in the performance world that you get what you pay for. The 10” units I have on my site, that’s the introductory prices. The prices will be going up to the MSRP soon. I don’t build the TCs I sell, I provide the specification to my builders.
The unit that Wayne is running is the 9.5” Stage 3 with a single disc. It’s build by Rusty at TCS. You can purchase it directly from him but not at the price you can get it from me. That TC at the time and still does have the strongest lock piston out there. Rusty supplies complete TC kits or individual parts of this TC to many big and small named TC builders. All the builders have to do is know how to assemble them and have the correct equipment. Then they just repackage them as their own. Even PI uses some of his parts. This TC can be used in a variety of applications from low stall 2600 rpm to 4600 rpm and in low hp to high hp applications.
I have a vehicle running this TC with the high carbon friction with over 750 rwtq/hp and in the 9s now. This vehicle is also street driven. We’ve had the TC opened for inspections during down time, the vehicle constantly lifting the heads. We haven’t found any signs of the TC slipping or any parts failures.
Wayne wanted something that would hold up to a turbo setup and so he went with the strongest setup I had at the time. We found out that the TC was more than the stock engine could handle and so I had to ramp the TC programming down until he starts making some real hp. The lock up would just over come the vehicle.
Also mentioned was the ability to fully lock up the TC. Not all TCs can be locked up fully or locked up at WOT. And then there are tuners out there that won’t lock up a TC at all or at WOT. Some don’t know how and some have their own reasons. Most tuners don’t deal with automatics much so tuning them is a mystery to them. I have access to a few tuner only forums and the vast majority of these tuners have no idea on how to tune an auto vehicle. I currently have 3 programs from 3 different tuners I was asked to look over. One actually helped out one of these others with their programming and all 3 now have trans and TC failures and it wasn’t due to trans or TC. Well one was due to the guy trying to lock up the PI at WOT so I guess that can be associated with poor TC design.
Mike, I very surprised your TC is holding up but then your tuner is probably not fully locking your TC. As I’ve posted before and when the TCs actually failed on me, the PI units can not hold up to WOT lockups. Just like the factory units, PI uses thin paper backed friction material in all their TCs. These quickly burn up and then peel off the piston leaving you with nothing for the TC to lock to. When my first PI failed on me I had it locking up at WOT with less hp than your vehicle. I called PI and was asked if the vehicle had a custom tune in it and if that locked the TC at WOT, I said yes. They then told me that they would still cover the reline and put it down as a restall but that I can’t lock the TC at WOT. Now this is directly from PI. That relined PI then also failed even with the lockups backed down. PI then talked me into a triple disc and said it would hold up to full lockups. It lasted 4 months with full lockups at WOT. If you do a search on TCCoA for failed PI you will see pics of Kris Danner’s and my PI units after they failed.
Now the rest of the PI unit is fine and a decent design. If you have a PI send it off to be relined with high carbon friction material. Or send it to me and I can have it done for you. If you are looking at purchasing a TC for high hp my 9.5” will out perform even the PI triple disc.
Roadboss, I have a lot of customers running the MM TC and a few Marauder customers. That TC can be locked up at WOT but not fully. It’s a decent TC from the factory but the locking piston and the friction material is weak. I’ve been able to deform the lockup piston in one of these just to see what it could take. Once the piston is deformed the TC is useless. The friction material is the same as any of the other factory TCs, paper backed thin material. This will not last long in any type of hp applications where you are locking up the TC over the stock programming. If you want to run some hp through one of these TCs then again I suggest you have it relined with some high carbon friction material. These TCs are great for stock replacements and mild performance for sure though.
As I mentioned above without mentioning names, there are some tuners that rather keep the TC unlocked than deal with a TC failure or replacement. One insists that keeping the TC unlocked will get them quicker ETs. I’ve taken a few of these vehicles and made them quicker by locking the TC and have helped another tuner/builder do the same. My honest opinion is that not locking the TC in these applications is cheaper for this tuner’s customers so they don’t have to drop the money on a new TC because the tuner knows the stock MM TC will burn up if the lockup is increased too much. Also keeping the TC unlocked will create more heat due to the slippage. I’ve seen other files where I’m just scratching me head trying to figure out what they were thinking. Also a fully locked up TC will decrease you fuel mileage somewhat due to no slippage. A stock MM TC also stalls much higher than 1850. With your amount of torque you are much closer to 2600 rpm.
95blclsc, just the opposite. With the lower torque you actually need a higher stall. Roadboss has a PD blower where it makes a lot of torque down low. There’s no real need for him to go with a higher stall since he’s in his power band already with the 2400 – 2600 rpm. He could benefit from a better TC because of better clamping force (lockup) and materials but his stall speed is about right for him. I don’t know what you power adder is though. I’m going to say for example you a centrifugal blower. With these they have to spool up before making any real power. This spooling up will normally be above 3000 – 3500 rpm. So anything under this isn’t being used. In order to take advantage of this type of power adder you need to get into the power band as quickly as possible. To do this you go to a higher stall TC.
There are other TCs out there now Wayne that will take full lockup. Most though are using parts from Rusty to do it though. And then there are some that will claim theirs will hold up but it’s expensive to find out the hard way they don’t. I know mine will and have tested them. I can put people in contact with these customers to prove it also.
As with Wayne, I’ve been through several other bands of TCs in my Mark. I’ve learned a lot about these TC during all this. I’ve seen them opened and I know what they are made of. I got tired of being taken to the cleaners for each time I switched to another brand. I’ve heard all the hype or BS from so and so and read a lot forum posts that had some sort of agenda to push a brand. I got tired of all this and figured a lot of others have too. Purchasing a TC and then having it installed is not a cheap endeavor. Then to have it fail or not produce what you expected or told is even more of an expense, this just plain sux. This is the reason went on say a quest to find something that really works. I did have a major stumble with a vendor and his not backing his products after they failed, but I’ve moved on now.
I’ve never had a failure with one of Rusty’s TCs which are the 9.5” units I sell. I spent the last 10 months working with Chris at Circle D to develop a new 10” unit for my business. We released these units 2 months ago. I put them through some unbelievable testing trying to destroy them. I’m very happy with these and so are all the customers that have them. I just sold a Stage 1, 3500 stall to the first Mark 8 owner so I’m interested to hear from him. All the other 10” units have gone in Mustangs, Tbirds and CVs. I had a 3000 stall Stage 1 in my Town Car for testing and it drove like stock until you nailed it. There was no change in mileage if I drove it like a sane person. It did surprise a few ricers though. I found that this car since it was so heavy really needed something more. The TC in it now is a 3600 stall Stage 1. The fuel mileage dropped slightly but I was able to get most of if back with a more economic program. With the standard performance programming the car really woke up. So much so that I had some drive it before telling them what was done to it. They though the car was stock even with the slightly higher rpm at take off. Then when I told them to nail it the guy couldn’t believe he was driving a Town Car. I even locked this TC up fully and beat the living day lights out of it for 2 full tanks at the track and on the street. The lockup was so extreme that I had to back it off. But man the car would just leap at each shift and lock. So I know it will take full lockup without warpage or damage. I didn’t install a trans cooler which I always insist on doing but the one I had I ended up letting a customer have…lol. Anyways, even without a trans cooler I didn’t seen any temps above 185 with back to back WOT runs. I was really surprised to see this. What this means is that not only do you get a higher stall but it’s a higher stall with more efficiency than those other brands. All the testing has been data logged and analyzed and then hours on the phone with Chris discussing the results for any needed improvements. So for those that are looking to step up to a TC that doesn’t break the bank these 10” Stage 1 and 2 TCs are very good choice.
Junkman306, for a stock to mile application 3400 - 3600 rpm stall. The 10” units I sell would work well with your setup and not bust the bank. They are built with the correct bolt pattern for your flex plate also. My TC’s are fully backed by me and the manufacture.
J you are correct in that TCs are not cheap. These are one of those items in the performance world that you get what you pay for. The 10” units I have on my site, that’s the introductory prices. The prices will be going up to the MSRP soon. I don’t build the TCs I sell, I provide the specification to my builders.
The unit that Wayne is running is the 9.5” Stage 3 with a single disc. It’s build by Rusty at TCS. You can purchase it directly from him but not at the price you can get it from me. That TC at the time and still does have the strongest lock piston out there. Rusty supplies complete TC kits or individual parts of this TC to many big and small named TC builders. All the builders have to do is know how to assemble them and have the correct equipment. Then they just repackage them as their own. Even PI uses some of his parts. This TC can be used in a variety of applications from low stall 2600 rpm to 4600 rpm and in low hp to high hp applications.
I have a vehicle running this TC with the high carbon friction with over 750 rwtq/hp and in the 9s now. This vehicle is also street driven. We’ve had the TC opened for inspections during down time, the vehicle constantly lifting the heads. We haven’t found any signs of the TC slipping or any parts failures.
Wayne wanted something that would hold up to a turbo setup and so he went with the strongest setup I had at the time. We found out that the TC was more than the stock engine could handle and so I had to ramp the TC programming down until he starts making some real hp. The lock up would just over come the vehicle.
Also mentioned was the ability to fully lock up the TC. Not all TCs can be locked up fully or locked up at WOT. And then there are tuners out there that won’t lock up a TC at all or at WOT. Some don’t know how and some have their own reasons. Most tuners don’t deal with automatics much so tuning them is a mystery to them. I have access to a few tuner only forums and the vast majority of these tuners have no idea on how to tune an auto vehicle. I currently have 3 programs from 3 different tuners I was asked to look over. One actually helped out one of these others with their programming and all 3 now have trans and TC failures and it wasn’t due to trans or TC. Well one was due to the guy trying to lock up the PI at WOT so I guess that can be associated with poor TC design.
Mike, I very surprised your TC is holding up but then your tuner is probably not fully locking your TC. As I’ve posted before and when the TCs actually failed on me, the PI units can not hold up to WOT lockups. Just like the factory units, PI uses thin paper backed friction material in all their TCs. These quickly burn up and then peel off the piston leaving you with nothing for the TC to lock to. When my first PI failed on me I had it locking up at WOT with less hp than your vehicle. I called PI and was asked if the vehicle had a custom tune in it and if that locked the TC at WOT, I said yes. They then told me that they would still cover the reline and put it down as a restall but that I can’t lock the TC at WOT. Now this is directly from PI. That relined PI then also failed even with the lockups backed down. PI then talked me into a triple disc and said it would hold up to full lockups. It lasted 4 months with full lockups at WOT. If you do a search on TCCoA for failed PI you will see pics of Kris Danner’s and my PI units after they failed.
Now the rest of the PI unit is fine and a decent design. If you have a PI send it off to be relined with high carbon friction material. Or send it to me and I can have it done for you. If you are looking at purchasing a TC for high hp my 9.5” will out perform even the PI triple disc.
Roadboss, I have a lot of customers running the MM TC and a few Marauder customers. That TC can be locked up at WOT but not fully. It’s a decent TC from the factory but the locking piston and the friction material is weak. I’ve been able to deform the lockup piston in one of these just to see what it could take. Once the piston is deformed the TC is useless. The friction material is the same as any of the other factory TCs, paper backed thin material. This will not last long in any type of hp applications where you are locking up the TC over the stock programming. If you want to run some hp through one of these TCs then again I suggest you have it relined with some high carbon friction material. These TCs are great for stock replacements and mild performance for sure though.
As I mentioned above without mentioning names, there are some tuners that rather keep the TC unlocked than deal with a TC failure or replacement. One insists that keeping the TC unlocked will get them quicker ETs. I’ve taken a few of these vehicles and made them quicker by locking the TC and have helped another tuner/builder do the same. My honest opinion is that not locking the TC in these applications is cheaper for this tuner’s customers so they don’t have to drop the money on a new TC because the tuner knows the stock MM TC will burn up if the lockup is increased too much. Also keeping the TC unlocked will create more heat due to the slippage. I’ve seen other files where I’m just scratching me head trying to figure out what they were thinking. Also a fully locked up TC will decrease you fuel mileage somewhat due to no slippage. A stock MM TC also stalls much higher than 1850. With your amount of torque you are much closer to 2600 rpm.
95blclsc, just the opposite. With the lower torque you actually need a higher stall. Roadboss has a PD blower where it makes a lot of torque down low. There’s no real need for him to go with a higher stall since he’s in his power band already with the 2400 – 2600 rpm. He could benefit from a better TC because of better clamping force (lockup) and materials but his stall speed is about right for him. I don’t know what you power adder is though. I’m going to say for example you a centrifugal blower. With these they have to spool up before making any real power. This spooling up will normally be above 3000 – 3500 rpm. So anything under this isn’t being used. In order to take advantage of this type of power adder you need to get into the power band as quickly as possible. To do this you go to a higher stall TC.
There are other TCs out there now Wayne that will take full lockup. Most though are using parts from Rusty to do it though. And then there are some that will claim theirs will hold up but it’s expensive to find out the hard way they don’t. I know mine will and have tested them. I can put people in contact with these customers to prove it also.
As with Wayne, I’ve been through several other bands of TCs in my Mark. I’ve learned a lot about these TC during all this. I’ve seen them opened and I know what they are made of. I got tired of being taken to the cleaners for each time I switched to another brand. I’ve heard all the hype or BS from so and so and read a lot forum posts that had some sort of agenda to push a brand. I got tired of all this and figured a lot of others have too. Purchasing a TC and then having it installed is not a cheap endeavor. Then to have it fail or not produce what you expected or told is even more of an expense, this just plain sux. This is the reason went on say a quest to find something that really works. I did have a major stumble with a vendor and his not backing his products after they failed, but I’ve moved on now.
I’ve never had a failure with one of Rusty’s TCs which are the 9.5” units I sell. I spent the last 10 months working with Chris at Circle D to develop a new 10” unit for my business. We released these units 2 months ago. I put them through some unbelievable testing trying to destroy them. I’m very happy with these and so are all the customers that have them. I just sold a Stage 1, 3500 stall to the first Mark 8 owner so I’m interested to hear from him. All the other 10” units have gone in Mustangs, Tbirds and CVs. I had a 3000 stall Stage 1 in my Town Car for testing and it drove like stock until you nailed it. There was no change in mileage if I drove it like a sane person. It did surprise a few ricers though. I found that this car since it was so heavy really needed something more. The TC in it now is a 3600 stall Stage 1. The fuel mileage dropped slightly but I was able to get most of if back with a more economic program. With the standard performance programming the car really woke up. So much so that I had some drive it before telling them what was done to it. They though the car was stock even with the slightly higher rpm at take off. Then when I told them to nail it the guy couldn’t believe he was driving a Town Car. I even locked this TC up fully and beat the living day lights out of it for 2 full tanks at the track and on the street. The lockup was so extreme that I had to back it off. But man the car would just leap at each shift and lock. So I know it will take full lockup without warpage or damage. I didn’t install a trans cooler which I always insist on doing but the one I had I ended up letting a customer have…lol. Anyways, even without a trans cooler I didn’t seen any temps above 185 with back to back WOT runs. I was really surprised to see this. What this means is that not only do you get a higher stall but it’s a higher stall with more efficiency than those other brands. All the testing has been data logged and analyzed and then hours on the phone with Chris discussing the results for any needed improvements. So for those that are looking to step up to a TC that doesn’t break the bank these 10” Stage 1 and 2 TCs are very good choice.
Junkman306, for a stock to mile application 3400 - 3600 rpm stall. The 10” units I sell would work well with your setup and not bust the bank. They are built with the correct bolt pattern for your flex plate also. My TC’s are fully backed by me and the manufacture.
Thanks for the info Lonnie. If I ever come up with some spare cash, I'll hit you up for a converter. 