LeoC2
Registered
Read this, it's very interesting
http://www.sema.org/Main/ArticleDetail.aspx?fc_c=938124x2019111x57252654&contentID=57853
http://www.sema.org/Main/ArticleDetail.aspx?fc_c=938124x2019111x57252654&contentID=57853
Interesting article debunking Ethanol
- Thread starter LeoC2
- Start date
You should change the title of this to debunking the amount of CO2 released. It should be OBVIOUS to anyone since all combustion releases H20 and CO2 that any combustion isn't going to significantly reduce the amount of CO2 released. I subscribe to the school of thought saying that CO2 isn't what is CAUSING global warming. There is a correlation between global warming and it seems to me based on what I have seen that the correlation is that as the earth gets hotter CO2 increases over time. Not the other way around.
On topic though, his little pun in the end is an excellent point. It also has the ability to offer a natural price cap on gasoline due to competition and put green in the pockets of consumer who aren't having to pay $4 a gallon for gas because competition capping the price. Now if only we could get rid of the 54 cent tariff on ethanol we probably wouldn't be paying over $3 a gallon in a year or so. By the way the tariff on oil is 0 cents.
On topic though, his little pun in the end is an excellent point. It also has the ability to offer a natural price cap on gasoline due to competition and put green in the pockets of consumer who aren't having to pay $4 a gallon for gas because competition capping the price. Now if only we could get rid of the 54 cent tariff on ethanol we probably wouldn't be paying over $3 a gallon in a year or so. By the way the tariff on oil is 0 cents.
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BigBoyBoelts
Registered
I'm sorry but that "article" is the biggest load of BS I have ever read!! This moron that wrote it was all concerned about giving the money to the farmer(who usually don't make a lot of money to begin with) and the ethanol processing plant, what as compared to sending it into the oil companies?!?! You know the ones that keep jacking up the cost of oil and gas and yet post the biggest earnings ever for one quarter of business?!?!?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?! The reason it might "create more CO2 production" is because of coal burning?!?! Ummm does this moron even understand how corn is processed into a burnable fuel source?
That whole article was a waste...I want my 5 minutes of life back!
That whole article was a waste...I want my 5 minutes of life back!
sleeper
Former LOD President
I just skimmed that article. It sucks. But so does ethanol, at least as we are producing it.
Greenhouse gases = BS. Global warming = BS. Smog, and the need to limit pollution in general = not BS. The thing is, we're already pretty damn good at cleaning up emissions, and the smog problems have pretty much gone away. Further efforts on pollution reduction can focus on centralized sources, such as industrial sources, and other sources not currently regulated, such as small engines and marine engines. The benefits on marine engines are great, with a cat and closed loop fuel injection (something available only on one particular motor from one manufacturer, currently) fuel consumption goes down dramatically, and carbon monoxide emissions are greatly reduced (carbon monoxide still does build up and kill people on boats, or at least kill brain cells).
Alternative fuels should be looked at not from an emissions standpoint, but from an energy dependancy standpoint. For the US, ethanol isn't all that great, at least not yet. In the northern states, there will be hard starting problems with ethanol. Ethanol contains less energy per unit volume than gasoline, which in turn contains less energy than diesel. Ethanol returns about the same amount of energy it takes to produce it, which doesn't help us much on the whole energy dependancy thing.
We need to adjust emissions regulations to encourage the production of diesel vehicles, and encourage production and use of biodiesel. At the same time, we need to find new technologies to produce ethanol cheaply and increase the energy yeld, and make it about 30% less than gasoline without subsidies. The technology will come, it's just not there yet.
We need to stop making ethanol from corn. Corn prices are going up, which is putting the hurt on a lot of poor mexicans (tortilla prices), and driving up the prices of beef, milk, and anything else that relies on corn. Not good.
Forget about the "greenhouse gases". Keep emissions regulations reasonable, focus on the local effects and forget about the junk science global warming crap.
Greenhouse gases = BS. Global warming = BS. Smog, and the need to limit pollution in general = not BS. The thing is, we're already pretty damn good at cleaning up emissions, and the smog problems have pretty much gone away. Further efforts on pollution reduction can focus on centralized sources, such as industrial sources, and other sources not currently regulated, such as small engines and marine engines. The benefits on marine engines are great, with a cat and closed loop fuel injection (something available only on one particular motor from one manufacturer, currently) fuel consumption goes down dramatically, and carbon monoxide emissions are greatly reduced (carbon monoxide still does build up and kill people on boats, or at least kill brain cells).
Alternative fuels should be looked at not from an emissions standpoint, but from an energy dependancy standpoint. For the US, ethanol isn't all that great, at least not yet. In the northern states, there will be hard starting problems with ethanol. Ethanol contains less energy per unit volume than gasoline, which in turn contains less energy than diesel. Ethanol returns about the same amount of energy it takes to produce it, which doesn't help us much on the whole energy dependancy thing.
We need to adjust emissions regulations to encourage the production of diesel vehicles, and encourage production and use of biodiesel. At the same time, we need to find new technologies to produce ethanol cheaply and increase the energy yeld, and make it about 30% less than gasoline without subsidies. The technology will come, it's just not there yet.
We need to stop making ethanol from corn. Corn prices are going up, which is putting the hurt on a lot of poor mexicans (tortilla prices), and driving up the prices of beef, milk, and anything else that relies on corn. Not good.
Forget about the "greenhouse gases". Keep emissions regulations reasonable, focus on the local effects and forget about the junk science global warming crap.
I dont understand how running an ethanol based fuel has any relevance to ECOMONY...
it takes twice as much ethanol to make the same power that gasoline makes.
AND.. this 10% ethanol crap we have here is only giving us 90% of the power we would be making with 100% gasoline.
YET.. these ethanol blends are AS or more expensive as gasoline.. which KILLS any "savings" running an ethanol blend would yeild.
Since the switch to E10 here in Houston, my gas mileage has suffered GREATLY
I used to get 27-30 on the highway, W/AC on, and on Cruise Control
Now under the same conditions as above I'm getting 24-25 on the highway.
We are paying MORE for fuel that takes us "LESS DISTANCE".. HOW IN THE HELL CAN THAT BE ECONOMICAL??????
These numbers DONT LIE
Fuel Type----Octane----Stoichiometric
Gasoline------87---------14.8
Gasoline------93---------14.7
Iso-Octane---100--------15.2
Diesel---------25--------14.5
Methanol-----104.5-------9.0
Ethanol-------104.2------9.87
You can plainly see it takes almost TWICE as much Methanol or Ethanol to make the same power as gasoline, just look at the A/F ratios..
Someone, somewhere is completely FLEECING the american public.
recap.. same price or very little difference, uses twice as much, mileage suffers, power output suffers, OUR POCKET BOOK SUFFERS..
YET.. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE IS GETTING FREAKING RICH!!
As for global warming, people need to realize/consider that in 4 seconds Mount Saint Helens put more CO2 into the atmosphere than "MAN" has since the industrial revolution..
and that is just ONE volcano..
not the 88 or so "active" ones that are spewing greenhouse gasses into our enviroment.. EVERY DAY.
Just food for thought, dont blame the messenger..HAHA
it takes twice as much ethanol to make the same power that gasoline makes.
AND.. this 10% ethanol crap we have here is only giving us 90% of the power we would be making with 100% gasoline.
YET.. these ethanol blends are AS or more expensive as gasoline.. which KILLS any "savings" running an ethanol blend would yeild.
Since the switch to E10 here in Houston, my gas mileage has suffered GREATLY
I used to get 27-30 on the highway, W/AC on, and on Cruise Control
Now under the same conditions as above I'm getting 24-25 on the highway.
We are paying MORE for fuel that takes us "LESS DISTANCE".. HOW IN THE HELL CAN THAT BE ECONOMICAL??????
These numbers DONT LIE
Fuel Type----Octane----Stoichiometric
Gasoline------87---------14.8
Gasoline------93---------14.7
Iso-Octane---100--------15.2
Diesel---------25--------14.5
Methanol-----104.5-------9.0
Ethanol-------104.2------9.87
You can plainly see it takes almost TWICE as much Methanol or Ethanol to make the same power as gasoline, just look at the A/F ratios..
Someone, somewhere is completely FLEECING the american public.
recap.. same price or very little difference, uses twice as much, mileage suffers, power output suffers, OUR POCKET BOOK SUFFERS..
YET.. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE IS GETTING FREAKING RICH!!
As for global warming, people need to realize/consider that in 4 seconds Mount Saint Helens put more CO2 into the atmosphere than "MAN" has since the industrial revolution..
and that is just ONE volcano..
not the 88 or so "active" ones that are spewing greenhouse gasses into our enviroment.. EVERY DAY.
Just food for thought, dont blame the messenger..HAHA
Not to turn this into a Global Warming thread, but Global Warming due to CO2, likely BS. Global Warming taken literally as in the earth is getting hotter, is a fact, not really open for debate.
LOL @ saying it takes twice as much ethanol to make the same power as gasoline. Although those numbers are not lying, your interpretation (or at least how you are presenting them) is wrong. Also, I could be wrong but I believe the octane of methanol is significantly higher than that. (So maybe the numbers actually are lying) I think its got an (R+M)/2 of 120. Not 100% on that though. Regardless the numbers you quoted do not say a thing about energy content. They say the ratio of air to fuel for perfect combustion (stoich) and the rate of burn (octane). The energy content of each fuel is readily available on the internet.
E85 needs about 20-40% more fuel. However if the tariff was removed, in most place E85 would be MORE than 30-40% cheaper than the current price of gas. (Although if you compare it to high test which it should make sense too as the octane rating is over 100) Not to mention thats the current price, not what the price will likely climb to.
As far as power output suffering, again, you have done no research and you're talking out of your ass. Look at the octane rating, you turn the timing up and in turbo/supercharged cars you turn the boost up. The FFV E85 Taurus makes more horsepower than the gasoline model and out performs itself with E85 vs Gasoline quite a bit. Volume for volume it makes less pwoer, but you dont use the same volume of fuel you sue more and you make more power with it.
Dont take my word for it though:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/26578.pdf
Now please, shut up.
LOL @ saying it takes twice as much ethanol to make the same power as gasoline. Although those numbers are not lying, your interpretation (or at least how you are presenting them) is wrong. Also, I could be wrong but I believe the octane of methanol is significantly higher than that. (So maybe the numbers actually are lying) I think its got an (R+M)/2 of 120. Not 100% on that though. Regardless the numbers you quoted do not say a thing about energy content. They say the ratio of air to fuel for perfect combustion (stoich) and the rate of burn (octane). The energy content of each fuel is readily available on the internet.
E85 needs about 20-40% more fuel. However if the tariff was removed, in most place E85 would be MORE than 30-40% cheaper than the current price of gas. (Although if you compare it to high test which it should make sense too as the octane rating is over 100) Not to mention thats the current price, not what the price will likely climb to.
As far as power output suffering, again, you have done no research and you're talking out of your ass. Look at the octane rating, you turn the timing up and in turbo/supercharged cars you turn the boost up. The FFV E85 Taurus makes more horsepower than the gasoline model and out performs itself with E85 vs Gasoline quite a bit. Volume for volume it makes less pwoer, but you dont use the same volume of fuel you sue more and you make more power with it.
Dont take my word for it though:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/26578.pdf
Now please, shut up.
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point in case.. right there..
Unsubscribe from YOUR thread, Mr. I know it all and tommy talks out his ass.
Screw this.
Wow you really didn't take kindly to being wrong did ya?
Point in case for what, you didn't say anything, or did I miss something? My thread? WTF? Don't get so worked up over this crap. I didn't say I knew it all, I said you were all wrong. Quite a chasm of a difference really. lmao
In all seriousness though, you were the one who went on a rant about evil corporations fleecing the public, ethanol's lack of energy content, and misrepresented facts. You cant get worked up when someone comes in a proves otherwise. I took time to do my homework, if you want to have a discussion, do the same, so you wont have to get mad, you can simply present your case without making statements to tug at peoples emotions. (Like that they are being "fleeced", or that some evil person is getting rich.)
Point in case for what, you didn't say anything, or did I miss something? My thread? WTF? Don't get so worked up over this crap. I didn't say I knew it all, I said you were all wrong. Quite a chasm of a difference really. lmao
In all seriousness though, you were the one who went on a rant about evil corporations fleecing the public, ethanol's lack of energy content, and misrepresented facts. You cant get worked up when someone comes in a proves otherwise. I took time to do my homework, if you want to have a discussion, do the same, so you wont have to get mad, you can simply present your case without making statements to tug at peoples emotions. (Like that they are being "fleeced", or that some evil person is getting rich.)
I wasn't wrong, the info I posted was a direct quote from a very VERY knowledable tuning who doesnt come to ANY mark 8 board because of this exact type of trolling.
I'm not going to argue with a tree stump just for the sake of arguing.
P.S. I have ran endless tests on Octane rating using knock motors, I've probably inspected more fuel that you have consumed in your entire life.
I know fuels, I know what the "M" in the octane formula means because I operated one of those machines for almost 11 years.
Hell I probably backed my car up futher than you have driven forwards, so enjoy youself here.. I'm "OUT"
No need to reply with more troll baiting as I wont be coming back
Peace out
I'm not going to argue with a tree stump just for the sake of arguing.
P.S. I have ran endless tests on Octane rating using knock motors, I've probably inspected more fuel that you have consumed in your entire life.
I know fuels, I know what the "M" in the octane formula means because I operated one of those machines for almost 11 years.
Hell I probably backed my car up futher than you have driven forwards, so enjoy youself here.. I'm "OUT"
No need to reply with more troll baiting as I wont be coming back
Peace out
Same goes for you Kyle... No personal insults towards other members.
I can state my sources if you care to check them out.
You said ethanol needs twice the fuel, and the cars that use it have lower performance, yet several government tests show that is untrue, one such test I posted.
You posted the octane numbers and stoichiometric ratio saying that proves that it needs twice as much fuel. That doesn't prove it needs twice as much fuel.
Again I can back up all my sources, heres a few:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/17305.shtml
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/26578.pdf
http://www.theturboforums.com/e85dyno.php
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
What are yours?
You said ethanol needs twice the fuel, and the cars that use it have lower performance, yet several government tests show that is untrue, one such test I posted.
You posted the octane numbers and stoichiometric ratio saying that proves that it needs twice as much fuel. That doesn't prove it needs twice as much fuel.
Again I can back up all my sources, heres a few:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/17305.shtml
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy99osti/26578.pdf
http://www.theturboforums.com/e85dyno.php
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
What are yours?
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sleeper
Former LOD President
There are no tariffs on ethanol, there are subsidies on its production. If the subsidies were removed, ethanol would cost even more than it currently does. The "cost per mile" on the only source I actually looked at up there isn't right... it assumes a higher price for gas and a lower price for ethanol than what is currently available. Ethanol might be slightly cheaper but not enough to offset the reduced energy content.
Production of ethanol from corn does not really make any sense, at least not with current methods. We're not getting out significantly more energy than we're putting in to make it. If we can make it from sugar, or algae, or some other source, it might be a viable solution to our nations energy woes, but currently, it's not.
And yes, it's got like 105 octane, but you still have to burn 30% more of it to get the same amount of work (energy) (not power... power is the rate at which work can be supplied). You can make MORE power on E85 because of the octane.
In some applications, Ethanol is great. In other applications, it sucks. Look at the problems caused by E10 in the marine industry. The stuff likes to absorb water... not good considering boat tanks are vented to atmosphere not far from a bit ol' body of water.
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1) Yes there are tariffs. Its a 54 cent tariff until 2009.
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=2713
http://www.alternet.org/environment/57388/
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/11474/1/383
2) I agree making it from corn makes no sense. Making it from Sugar and importing it does. Worrying about foreign dependency on oil is stupid. We can make it from sugar so I am not sure why you say its not a viable solution. The entire country of Brazil runs on it.
3) Yes that is why you can and do make more power on it. Power is being used as an abbreviation for horsepower. As in the number.
4) I am not proposing forcing people to use it. I think everyone involved in this argument are proposing it as competition for regular gasoline. Forcing people to sue it has nothing to do with nothing. No one is saying that. The applications it does work in is where its being suggested to work, no one is saying lets run the whole country on the stuff. I am saying lets use it as a free market price cap on Gasoline prices and as a great fuel for daily driven high performance cars.
Tarriffs are applied to imported products.
Subsidies are applied to domestic products.
We are subsidizing domestic production of ethanol and imposing tariffs of imported ethanol. It's the 'double whammy' of govenment regulation. I believe both tariffs and subsidies have a place in the short term but neither are viable solutions for the long term.
Subsidies are applied to domestic products.
We are subsidizing domestic production of ethanol and imposing tariffs of imported ethanol. It's the 'double whammy' of govenment regulation. I believe both tariffs and subsidies have a place in the short term but neither are viable solutions for the long term.
What tariffs and subsidies are supposed to do is protect a budding industry until its ready to compete. We have known how to make ethanol from corn for a long time, we simply DO NOT have the comparative advantage when it comes to domestic ethanol production. Haiti, Brazil, Ecuador, etc. do and they will rise as market kings in a free market. Unless they continue the subsidies and tariff (which will only hurt the American consumer)
Lets call a spade a spade here, the auto, oil, and corn lobbyists got together and got a tariff and gave the politicians a great excuse for it. We're protecting the American farmer and reducing our dependence on foreign oil. Bull**** they are protecting all of the above.
Lets call a spade a spade here, the auto, oil, and corn lobbyists got together and got a tariff and gave the politicians a great excuse for it. We're protecting the American farmer and reducing our dependence on foreign oil. Bull**** they are protecting all of the above.