Starting problem - need parts advice

C

calviroman

Registered
I went to start my car yesterday (97 LSC, 93K, about 50 degrees out), and it would crank, but not start or sputter at all. To me it sounded like it wasnt even trying to fire off. So first thing I think is crankshaft position sensor, camshaft position sensor or possibly a bad fuel pump. The car was at ambient outside temp when I tried to start it. No anti-theft issues.

Today I went outside to see if there were any key-on, engine-off DTC codes (used autoenginuity software). There were none. I then tried to start it again - same results. I then tried to start it with the accel pedal at WOT. It DID sputter to life after some cranking. Once running it ran and idled fine. I drove it for about 25 minutes to get the battery charged back up good and also to see if anything interesting would show up on the OBD-II software. No codes, all sensor outputs (TPS, O2, ECT, ect) looked fine.

With the engine still running I attached a fuel pressure gauge. I had 32psi at idle, and it would spike up a bit When I would tip on the throttle.

The car is pretty much stock (has JW dyno tune, gears, exhaust) and is in great tune (plugs, COP boots, ect all newish)

Thoughts? Fuel pump problem? Cam/crank pos sensor issue?

Thanks,
Cal
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

Let me also add that most parts are still OEM original from Nov 96. Exceptions are starter, alternator, battery, air susp compressor. I would rule out a bad/poor quality fuel problem. Fuel filter was replaced 3500 miles ago. Plugs and COP boots are less than 60 days old. No recent work that would have disturbed any wiring harness or other component that I know of. All work performed by me at home. All parts are motorcraft.
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

If it was the fuel pump or crank sensor, I do not believe you would've been able to make it run.

But for posterity's sake, check the fuel pressure when cranking next. The fuel pressure should come up with the key turned on. The pump will run only for a second or so. Cycling the key on/off is the methos used to prime the system or purge any air.

All that said, I lean to a cam sensor or cam sensor harness problem. The wires have a tendency to break right at the harness connector at the sensor causing an intermittent open. I have not ever heard of a code thrown from this?

BTW, the crank sensor is the trigger for the ignition system while the cam sensor is the trigger for the fuel injectors. From the manual:

Cylinder Identification Sensor
The Cylinder Identification (CID) Sensor provides crankshaft position information to the PCM. The PCM uses this information during engine start up to begin sequential pulsing of the injectors at the correct time.

The "CID" sensor is the cam sensor. A little known fact is the engine will run without a CID signal but MAY not start.
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

Thanks,

Well since this morning I have started the car 2 additionbal times, both times the car started normally. I am on my way to the parts store to get a Crank and a Cam position sensor ($30 total). I will install both today as preventative maint. I'll also inspect the wiring near the cam pos sen. for the problems you described.

I'll also probably start looking online for a new fuel pump. Its probably a good time to change it while the car can still drive. Do you suggest a walbro 190 or 255 LPH, or an "aviator" pump (popular with the mustang crowd). I know the avi is returnless, however was under the impression that it works fine in returnless systems (not positive though).

Any other tips or comments???
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

Aviator pump as well as any new cobra or focus pump is operated by variable voltage. I don't think it would work very well with the steady voltage, or maybe it would be simply working at it's peak output all the time. Get the 190 walbro, it can be had for about $80 shipped. Or go for the "big dog" 255 if you plan on adding a power adder in the future. In any case 93k on the stock pump is enough.
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

I agree with Jeremi, I don't think the returnless pump would be what you want. I'd go for the Walbro 255, however be aware you may hear the pump running. It's not too loud IMHO(but I can't hear well anyway), but I've heard some people complain after the upgrade. If that is a concern the 190 is a better choice. I know the sponsor of this board(SCP) has them in both flavors at competitive pricing.

Let us hear how replacing the sensors go.
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
I agree with Jeremi, I don't think the returnless pump would be what you want. I'd go for the Walbro 255, however be aware you may hear the pump running. It's not too loud IMHO(but I can't hear well anyway), but I've heard some people complain after the upgrade. If that is a concern the 190 is a better choice. I know the sponsor of this board(SCP) has them in both flavors at competitive pricing.Let us hear how replacing the sensors go.
[/div]

My crank position sensor gave me "intermittant" problems for about 6 mos before I figured out what the problem was.
One day it'd start fine
The next... it wouldn't.
Two hours later VARRROOOOM it'd start again..
it was quite perplexing to say the least.

I just put a 255l pump for a 98 cobra in my car YESTERDAY.
it was 109.00 at www.50resto.com
Genuine ford part as well.. I picked up up via customer pick up at Tommy Vaugh Ford

As for the two speed pump stuff,

There are three wires going TO the fuel pump assembly but there are only TWO wires going INSIDE the tank to the pump.

So. I'm assuming they use a "dual voltage" feed that when "combined" creates the voltage reqired for "two speed" operation.
{that is a GUESS at best} but seems accurate.

I CAN hear the pump inside the car, but it's not "bad".
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

Well, both the cam and crank sensors have been swapped out. They were $14.99ea + tax. The cam sensor was very easy as it is right behind the pwr steering resevoir. The crank sensor was a bit more difficult as I had to put the car on ramps and move the AC compressor a few inches out of the way. Total time for both was about a full hour.

The hard start / no start condition has not reared its ugly head since this morning when I got it started. Hopefully it was a sensor problem. I'll post if it happens again at all.

I am still going to replace the fuel pump (I think we agree its time). You mentioned a Walbro 190 lph for $80+, do you have a source for that price?

Thanks for the advice..............Cal
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

autoperformanceengineering.com shows the 93-96 MK8 190lph pump being FPF025. It does not mention the 97-98's. I this PN good for 97-98 Marks as well? I know my 97 has "variable voltage" to the pump. Not a true PWM like the 99+ DOHC, but some form of voltage regulation. Not sure if gen 1's were the same or not.

On a side note I sealed the deal on an 03 Navigator Ultimate 4X4 today. I'l pretty excited about it. Me and my old lady were sharing my Mark for the last 6 months. I'm leaving to go pick it up on Wednesday (its out of state). I'll post some pics next week once I get it home and get it cleaned up.

Cal
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

I used the 255 pump from autoperformanceengineering.com, and it worked, but I had to make some modifications to the connectors for it to fit.

-Brent
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

Correction...

I listed the 255l pump as a genuine ford part..
It's actually a "walboro" pump SOLD at a ford motorsports outlet.
I found that out after closer inspection of the pump itself

Cost was 109.00

and.. it REALLY made my car feel ALOT BETTER!
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

I should probably look into the fuel pump soon as well....102XXX miles and still the original as far as I could tell when we did my rear end swap.
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
I should probably look into the fuel pump soon as well....102XXX miles
[/div]

Mine died the first time at 150,000 miles
Tiff made it to 220,000 on her original pump.

it's been said they are pretty much "done" by 80-100,000 miles.

Rather than getting stranded again, I just changed it at 312,000 for "piece of mind".
 
RE: Starting problem - need parts advice

how hard is it to swap fuel pump is it in the tank?? 93
 
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