Beware, political discussion may ensue

RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

After reading all of this I submit the following:

Opinions are like rectums, we all have one. Some just matter more than others. Ron, until you live in this country and contribute to the tax base, what you think, and your opinions concerning this subject are completely immaterial.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

After reading all of this I submit the following:

Opinions are like rectums, we all have one. Some just matter more than others. Ron, until you live in this country and contribute to the tax base, what you think, and your opinions concerning this subject are completely immaterial.
Click to expand...

By that logic, we shouldn't have any say in what goes on anywhere else in the world. Then again, maybe that would be a good thing.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Anyone who thinks that Saddam is or was a direct threat to the US has to have their head up their you know what. When the war first started, I was all for it. WMD's, humanitarian issues, etc., etc. I bought into everything the govn't/media was pushing at me. To tell you the truth, even some of the arguments on here couldn't change my mind. Now, I see things a little bit differently. I get into some major political discussions with my uncle, and he finally made me see things the way that they really are.

1.)Saddam is/was clearly NOT the biggest threat to the US in the world.

2.)Saddam probably had nothing to do with Sept. 11th.

3.)We only decided to invade Iraq after we failed in our attempt to find Osama Bin Laden.

4.)There are many other countries in the world with humanitarian issues which are just as bad or worse than those in Iraq.

5.)If Saddam had a nuke and/or biological/chemical weapons, who would he attack? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count.

6.)Putting aside the lack of political and religious freedom, Iraq was a prosperous country before Saddam invaded Kuwait and the first gulf war happened.

7.)Who did Saddam originally get his WMD from?

8.)Who was Saddam's ally when it served their political purpose?

9.)Who is the US really "protecting" by removing Saddam from power?

10.)Will the new government be any better in the long run?

11.)Can you pro-war people see the other side at all?

There is a reason that most of the world hates us right now and that reason is that instead of worrying about our problems at home, we constantly try to impose our will on everyone else.

Q: What was the reasson for Sept. 11th?

A: Our undying and unlimited support of one country. I'm not saying that we should not be allies with this country, but that country engages in terrorist activity on a daily basis. We have done enough for them and there is no need to spend billions and billions of dollars every year on them. I think they can fight their own fights now.

All we have to do is go about our own business and let everyone else take care of themselves. No one is forcing Iraqis to stay in Iraq. If they wanted to leave, they could find a way. I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep an eye on things, but we can't try to oust every corrupt government in the world, or we have a lot of work ahead of us.


I'm sure I left some things out, but I'm sick and groggy.


Oh yeah, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!! The best country in the world, no matter how many mistakes we make.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Here is how we have spent our money, and what we have received in return.

(Washington Post)

Your ill spent tax dollars

The United States gives out $13.3 billion tax dollars in direct Foreign
Aid annually. The United States is above and beyond the single most
generous
benefactor of the United Nations, donating $2.4 billion dollars of YOUR
money, to primarily third-world dictators.

This amount is 25% of the United Nations budget. In addition, the United
States also gives another $1.4 billion tax dollars to United Nations'
programs and agencies. The American taxpayers fund more for the United
Nations than ALL of the other 177 member nations COMBINED.

What most Americans do not realize is that the vast majority of the
recipients of the of US Foreign Aid routinely vote against the wishes of
the United States in the United Nations at an average rate of 74%. In
other words, of the $13.3 billion tax dollars invested in direct Foreign
Aid only about 26% or $3.5 billion went to support people who endorsed
American initiatives or causes. A staggering $9.8 billion tax dollars went
to causes
and people who were and are in open and direct opposition to the United
States' interests and objectives.

Listed below are the actual voting records of various Arabic/Islamic
States which are recorded in both the US State Department and United
Nations'
records:

Kuwait votes against the United States 67% of the time.
Qatar votes against the United States 67% of the time.
Morocco votes against the United States 70% of the time.
United Arab Emirates votes against the U. S. 70% of the time.
Jordan votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Tunisia votes against the United States 71% of the time.
Saudi Arabia votes against the United States 73% of the time.
Yemen votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Algeria votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Oman votes against the United States 74% of the time.
Sudan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Pakistan votes against the United States 75% of the time.
Libya votes against the United States 76% of the time.
Egypt votes against the United States 79% of the time.
Lebanon votes against the United States 80% of the time.
India votes against the United States 81% of the time.
Syria votes against the United States 84% of the time.
Mauritania votes against the United States 87% of the time.

US Foreign Aid to those that hate us:

Egypt, for example, after voting 79% of the time against the United
States, still receives $2 billion annually in US Foreign Aid.

Jordan votes 71% against the United States and receives $192,814,000
annually in US Foreign Aid.

Pakistan votes 75% against the United States receives $6,721,000 annually
in US Foreign Aid.

India votes 81% against the United States receives $143,699,000 annually
in US Foreign Aid.

In the last year The Taliban terrorized the people of Afghanistan and
gave safe haven to Osama Bin Laden, they received $143,000,000 in US
Foreign Aid.

Sudan voted 75% against the United States and received $1,121,000 in US
Foreign Aid. (The US State Department stated that the Sudanese government
is guilty of providing a safe haven for a variety of terrorist groups
including Osama Bin Laden's organization, The Egyptian Jihad, The
Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and Hamas. The Islamic government has also
conducted a literal reign of terror against the Christians living in the
southern part of the country.)

The Palestinian Authority will receive $500 million dollars in US Foreign
Aid over the next five years(!!!) This happened due to the
Oslo"Agreement" of 1993, a deal which was endorsed and avidly supported by
now New York
Senator Hillary Clinton, who was then First Lady.

The Clinton Administration sought to establish good relations with
terrorist groups despite their support of terrorism and anti-Western
stances.

The Palestinians were seen on ABC News openly celebrating and dancing in
the streets at the news of both suicide bombings on Sept. 11th.

Israel, it must be noted, receives three billion in US Foreign Aid.
However, for the last five years it has an average record of voting with
the United States 94% of the time.

There is clearly no incentive for most countries to support the United
States, as they will receive US Foreign Aid regardless of their stances.

Perhaps it is time for the United States to deny things such as money,
scientific, technological, medical expertise, and education to nations
who simply will not assist or protect American interests?

Worse yet, your Federal dollar go to and support all of the anti-American groups trying to destroy the "American way of life". Ya gotta love it.

Sandy Back here, now.......

Now, which country was it that you'd like to see foreign aid discontinued to ???? Ummmm ?
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

I guess we cant buy their votes, eh??

Bush shouldn't be president anyway, but while he's in there he might as well straighten out the middle east.....its been screwed up since the oil embargo from the mid seventies....so....those who say its not about oil...

Just watch..

te
94
LM8
150k miles
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Sandy, I agree with you. If I had my way we'd cut ALL foreign aid and let those poor ____s die. Why the hell should I bust my ass day in and day out just to give the money away to people who didn't earn it, especially considering that this foreign aid is nothing more than a politcal tool that doesn't work worth ____. It is NOT my intrinsic right to look out for/protect the 'weak'. Darwin, you take over from here...
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue


Warning!! Do Not I say again Do Not turn your back on
Israel!
If you fail to see this, better get back to the basics YOUR BIBLE.!!

I also assume that all whom are whinning and bitching, are tax paying
United States citizens??

BTW Friend, your Uncle is not giving you good infromation!!

What are his credinitals? Maybe a college professer?

And I say to ALL. If you think you can find a better place to live,
Hey "Go for it". Best to all. :) Fuz.

Stop in for a big juicy Elk Steak.. :) :)
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

"1.)Saddam is/was clearly NOT the biggest threat to the US in the world."

He's still a threat though.

"2.)Saddam probably had nothing to do with Sept. 11th."

Except for training the terrorists outside of Bahgdad.

"3.)We only decided to invade Iraq after we failed in our attempt to find Osama Bin Laden."

We haven't failed. We just haven't succeeded yet.

"4.)There are many other countries in the world with humanitarian issues which are just as bad or worse than those in Iraq."

We didn't go in because of the humanitarian issue. We went in because he supported terrorism, and didn't disarm like a good little boy.

"5.)If Saddam had a nuke and/or biological/chemical weapons, who would he attack? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count."

His own people. Or he'd share it with his terrorist buddies, and they'd sneak some in over here and use it.

"6.)Putting aside the lack of political and religious freedom, Iraq was a prosperous country before Saddam invaded Kuwait and the first gulf war happened."

Then maybe Saddam shouldn't have invaded Kuwait. Or maybe we should have finished the job 12 years ago.

"7.)Who did Saddam originally get his WMD from?"

Us. That whole enemies enemy thing, coming back to bite us yet again, just like Osama. If you're buddy from last year stabs you in the back, are you permitted to stab back?

"8.)Who was Saddam's ally when it served their political purpose?"

Us then. France now. But we got bigger guns.

"9.)Who is the US really "protecting" by removing Saddam from power?"

Us, and the Iraqi people.

"10.)Will the new government be any better in the long run?"

Depends. That's why this is a critical time.

"11.)Can you pro-war people see the other side at all?"

Are you going to explain it to me? I'm not seeing any reason why what was done was wrong or bad. It served our political purpose, obviously, and that doesn't make it wrong.

"There is a reason that most of the world hates us right now and that reason is that instead of worrying about our problems at home, we constantly try to impose our will on everyone else."

By giving them money? No, i think they hate us more because we're not devout Muslims and we're prosperous.

"Q: What was the reasson for Sept. 11th?

A: Our undying and unlimited support of one country. I'm not saying that we should not be allies with this country, but that country engages in terrorist activity on a daily basis. We have done enough for them and there is no need to spend billions and billions of dollars every year on them. I think they can fight their own fights now."

Or, to look at it another way:

A: The hatred of certain religious radicals for countries that allow religious freedom, capitalism, prosperity, and womens rights, and our dedication to these issues.

I think you should study a bit about Israel. The palestinians have no legitimate claim to that land. There never was a palestinian state governed by palestinians, ever, in history. Palestinians are Arabs. The stated objective of the PLO (who, by the way, never complained when Jordan occupied certain "occupied territories") is not a palestinian state, but the eradication of the Isrealis. So it is only right that we should support Israel. They could fight their own fight, and the demonstrated that they could back in the sixties. It didn't take them long to whoop a little ass in that one.

"All we have to do is go about our own business and let everyone else take care of themselves."

That sounds all well and good, but it's BS. It doesn't work that way.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Personally; I think we would be better served to take care of our own before concerining oursleves with every other countries issues. We have PLENTY of problems here to deal with!!
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Seems to me if we stopped giving aid to Israel and/or were more even-handed in our policies, we'd be seeing a lot more yes votes from those other countries, and we wouldn't need to bribe them for those few yes votes we do get. It'd be cheaper all around.

By the way, the money we send to Israel every year is just about equal to the amount of money they spend building "outposts" and settlements in the West Bank. Stop building those settlements, and the money is still available to spend on defense, even without our help. And once the settlements have stopped, you've eliminated a major (if not the major) source of animosity towards both Israel and the U.S. Seems like a much better plan than dumping more and more money into a system that only makes the situation worse.

I'm not for letting Israel loose to the wolves, mind you. By all means, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and all the other terrorist groups must be dealt with. Abbas should be the one to do that, but right now he's got Arafat's hand up his butt, calling all the shots. That's a problem.

I've got to give give Bush major credit for taking Israel to task on the settlements (that's right, I said it - mark you calendars). While I'm still skeptical that he won't cave at some point, he's got a lot of guts going against his Christian base, who we all know are rabidly supportive of Israel, but for their own reasons (Bible prophesy). The cynical side of me believes they (Bush and Sharon) EXPECT the terrorists to muck it up so they can back out of the road map and say they tried. I give it a 20% chance of succeeding. But that's better than zero, which is where we were six months ago.

I read the other day that there is a growing segment of the Palestinian population who are actually calling on Hamas to stop the attacks and give the road map a chance. They're sick and tired of the violence. Maybe, just maybe, there is hope. I don't know.

Man, how did we get off on this tangent anyway?
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue


Warning!! Do Not I say again Do Not turn your back on
Israel!
If you fail to see this, better get back to the basics YOUR BIBLE.!!


If, I assume, you're referring to the Second Coming, doesn't the Bible say (paraphrasing) that "only God will know the time"? If so, what difference does it make WHAT man does? By our support, do we hope to speed up the process? Seems kind of presumptuous to me.


I also assume that all whom are whinning and bitching, are tax paying
United States citizens??

As I said earlier, what does that have to do with anything? Are we tax-paying Iraqis? No. So what are we doing over there? Don't American policies affect other nations besides our own? Then why shouldn't they be able to give their opinion?


BTW Friend, your Uncle is not giving you good infromation!!

What are his credinitals? Maybe a college professer?

And I say to ALL. If you think you can find a better place to live,
Hey "Go for it".

I for one like it here just fine, thank you. Some of us love it so much we try to point out when we believe its headed down the wrong path, hopefully before it's too late. We may be wrong, we may be right, but at least we're concerned enough to try and look out for her. Blind devotion to our leaders is a sure-fire recipe for disaster.

It sounds like it's you who doesn't like living here where we get to voice our opinion. I wish you the best Jack, I just wish you'd be a little more tolerant of other's opinions. After all, that's all they are, opinions. Just like yours.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

I omitted the last paragraph from my prior e-mail because I didn't think it relevant. It relates to an ongoing element with my friends about means/ends that arises in many of our discussions, but I didn't think it would find its way here. In light of DavidCC's comments, I'll include that paragraph now. As follows;

"In this case the end is honorable, i.e. the verification and destruction of
WMD's to make the world a safer place. Also, in this case, the means to
achieve that end are honorable, i.e. a short, precise war with a minimum of
callateral damage. The freedom of the Iraqi people is only a happy side
benefit. So, the means of removing a horrible dictatorship in the act of
obfuscating its WMD capabilities is worthy of the honorable end of making
the world a safer place"


Dave.
'02 Camaro SS
Former VIII owner.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Dave,

Let me get this straight. You think that Saddam Hussein's gov't directly sponsored the training of the Saudi nationals who bombed the WTC? When presented with this same argument, Colin Powell himself was heard to mutter "This is bull****".

And how could Saddam possibly threaten the United States? He couldn't even make a dent in the American offense ON HIS OWN SOIL!! Yet he's a threat to do what exactly to the Unites States, on their own soil no less?

C'mon Dave...quite goofing off!! :)
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

STrapp

I am a man of few words I agree with you 100%. WE should take care of our own first. Then help others if need be.
Our own country is so screwed up!!
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Personally; I think we would be better served to take care of our own before concerining oursleves with every other countries issues. We have PLENTY of problems here to deal with!!
Click to expand...

We'll have a lot more problems if we pull out of everywhere around the world. We have to be concerned with other countries, that's part of taking care of our own.

Ron, show me where Powell is quoted saying that. Terrorist training camps were found in Iraq, one with a airplane fuselage used to practice hijackings. It's irrelevant where the people that bombed us trained, we are at war against terrorism, and Saddam clearly sponsored (and probably continues to sponsor) terrorism. There has been some evidence unearthed linking Saddam and Osama, as well.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Sandy, your right, we shouldn't give our well earned money to any of those countries including Israel. Yeah, Israel might vote with us 97% of the time, but they also go against our wishes whenever they see fit. At this point, enough is enough. Israel can protect themselves. I'm not saying that if they are invaded (which will probably never happen), we shouldn't help them, I'm just saying that what we give them now is a G-Damn waste of our own money. Will they stop voting with us if we stop giving them 3 billion a year? If that's the case, it just supports my opinion that we shouldn't be giving them so much. Buying votes doesn't work. The UN doesn't work.

Case in point on Israel going against our wishes, we ask them to hold back on retaliation against suicide bombers (acting as individuals or as members of Hamas, a non-Palestinian organization), yet Israel rolls in the tanks and basically indiscriminately blast away at whatever they please. Maybe if they would practice a little restraint, it would actually help the situation. If we keep playing favorites so much, it's only a matter of time before the suicide bombers are over here in malls and restaraunts blowing themselves and others up. What will we do then, the same thing that Israel does now? It's obviously not working.

There are plenty of problems to work on here at home. We need better schools, medical care, roads, social security, etc., yet it's more important to spend our money all over the world.

By the way, to whoever it was that asked my uncle's profession, that's clearly irrelevant. Are only proffesors allowed to think for themselves nowadays? Actually, if it's that important to you, he's a carpenter. But what matters is that he can form his opinions by looking at what he sees, not what he's fed.
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue


And why is that? Because he lost the popular vote or won the electoral vote? Last I checked, the guy or gal that wins the electoral college is the winner. That way, the little guy like Jack up in Wyoming also gets a chance for his voice to be heard. Not just the big cities. Should I post the electoral college map again for you? Hopefully, this will help you get over it.
http://www.2000gop.com/countymap.jpg
This first map represents the majority vote by county...Bush is obviously in red. Who really won????
http://www.2000gop.com/statemap.gif

'93 MonsterMark Project Car
Bryan
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

This is just my opinion, but I don't think insinuating that your uncle might be a college professor was meant as a compliment. He was trying to insinuate that your uncle is an un-american bleeding-heart idiot liberal, and "professor" is just right-wing short-hand for all that... at least that's what I understand from listening to Hannity :p.


DavidCC

94 Mark VIII, Black / Black
 
RE: Beware, political discussion may ensue

Well, that's the problem with the electoral vote - you don't necessarily get the president the MAJORITY of the people voted for. I really get tired of people trotting out that top map - it gives the impression that republicans have a far larger percentage of support than is true...notice how much of the red is just wide open space...

John
http://mark8.org/users/johnaec/Mark_VIII_s.jpg
'97 Mark VIII LSC
'96 T-Bird 4.6L
 
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