Frozen rotors installed

[logres]

I can tell you that it is night and day difference. Tell you what, since I have pretty much have 2000 Cobra R brakes on my Mark with upgraded Baer rotors that have the following features, l have posted below what I found doing a google search for some published write-ups.

Keep in mind this is a single stop. YMMV. We all know what will happen to the stock Mark brakes after a couple panic stops... Don't follow me too close now...


GT3: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 98

2000 Cobra R: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 109

GT2:Braking 60-0 mph, ft 110

Z06: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 111

2003 Cobra: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 121

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 122

Baer Eradispeed Extreme Plus 2 piece Front Brake Rotors:

- Dramatically reduced weight
- Increased heat absorption
- Faster thermal recovery
- High resistance to stress cracking
- Increased friction, low wear, from proprietary iron specification
- Greater airflow efficiency through curved vane or Kangaroo™ port design
- Location of holes directly behind vane structure to arrest and limit migration of stress fractures from cross-drilling
- Elimination of out-gassing
- Greater bite or initial onset of friction
- Equalized pad surface wear
- Improved wet weather performance
- Brilliant rust resistant surfaces
- Dynamic visual impact
- Limited Lifetime Warranty Against Warping

I should have clarified.

Pad/rotor material/quality vs. brake system SIZE.

Larger Autozone pads and rotors are still Autozone pads and rotors.

My experiment would have performance pads and rotors in the stock brake size vs. cheapo pads and rotors in a larger brake size...realizing that you have both performance pads and rotors AND larger brakes.

 

[TwinTurbo MarkVIII]

I know a bit about metallurgy, I can tell you that cryo freezing is complete a waste of money. The only thing it can do is give you a slight improvement in a sub-par metal, if any......There's my .02

Wow, your .02 isn't worth much. LOL

I happen to OWN a cryogenic machine and we have been doing rotors and pads, as well engine blocks, cranks, valves, you name it for a couple of years now.

Our biggest business is motor coach and school buses rotors and drums. These things run up to 135 lbs per drum. They get 2x to 3x times the life out of the drums and rotors, saving hundreds of dollars on rebuilds. We haven't been able to break into racing yet as ALL the major race teams have their own machines. (That should tell you something right there.) Ever wonder why those guys can run 200 mph, jam on the brakes and not warp a rotor in 500 miles?

All the aerospace companies use these machines to treat jet engine components. I'm pretty sure those guys know a little about metallurgy.

I not here to convince anyone of the efficacy of this process. There will always be naysayers.

We happen to run a 5th generation cryo machine.
Computer controlled from room temp all the down to -305F. We can take the temperature down to -300 below in 2 hours or 48 hours. ALL computer controlled.

After controlling our temperature drop, we raise the temp back to room temp and then go one step further. We heat treat the part. That is, the parts stay in the same machine and are warmed up to +400 to +500F to completely stress relieve the part. Then the parts are returned to room temp.

Our programs takes a 48 hour cycle to complete.

We did a 454 engine block and internals and picked up 25 hp with NO machining.

I run cryo rotors on all my cars and trucks, friends and family included.

And we don't jack you for $100/pop/rotor like other guys do and the OP guy that posted just paid.

Figure $20/rotor. $80 for a set. All depends on how many parts we treat per run. Do a group buy? Even cheaper!

Sorry, but parts are no longer dropped into a vat of liquid nitrogen.

The liquid is converted into gas, then the gas is SLOOOWLY introduced based on a computer controlled profile that we created based on the type and thickness of the metals being treated. We have over 25 profiles right now. We can control temperature inside the machine to within 1 degree.

If anyone is interested, PM me if you want more real-life information, not internet disinformation.

 

[budpytko]

kewl...not to confuse anyone with "cool"......

 

[95blklsc]

Just the fact that you own a a set up to do cryo work does not make you a trusted source of information. I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you, I have nothing to gain. If you would like to cite some scientific tests or results I'm all ears.

Your anecdotal evidence "proving" the validity of your claims does not hold any weight in my book. There are methods used in the aerospace industry that use liquid nitrogen to rapidly cool liquid metals to force rapid dendrite growth in one direction but this isn't the type of cryo treating you are talking about. I'm interested in any new proven and researched methods relating to cryo treating, not just rapid quenching during an anneal process.

As for the aerospace industry, the only thing I can think of right now that you might be referring to is turbine blades. Large temperature gradients on one axis are achieved by using liquid nitrogen can help form long longitudinal grain structures as seen here.

http://ditwww.epfl.ch/SIC/SA/publications/SCR96/scr8-page11.html


Here's just one source from an ASM article that speaks of the lack of scientific information behind cryo treating. (BTW, feel free to do some research about ASM relating to the metallurgy field.) =)

I have read a few articles on this but this is just one I can dig up right now:

Over the years, the possibility of enhancing the properties of hardened steels by treating them at temperatures below room temperature has been of interest. Two types of low temperature thermal treatments are subzero, or cold treatment, and cryogenic treatment. Subzero treatmentis carried out at -145°C (-230°F), while cryogenic treatment is carried out at -195°C (-320°F), the boiling point of liquid nitrogen. Interest continues based on anecdotal evidence of the benefits of “cryo” treatment not only for steels but also in nonferrous metals like copper, aluminum and titanium. The literature contains many claims about the advantages of cryogenics [1-5]. However, there is little information available in the scientific literature regarding understanding the mechanism behind property improvements [6-8] beyond the obvious conversion of austenite to martensite, which only applies to steels. The objectives of this study were to quantify any property improvements and correlate them with microstructural changes.


http://asmcommunity.asminternationa...e36c228110VgnVCM100000701e010aRCRD&fullDesc=y

If you do find some good information proving the validity of cryo treating by the methods commonly used to treat brake disks and engine components post manufacturing PLEASE post it up. I have personally searched for studies in the past and found nothing conclusive.

 

[7 sek mark]

i have the EBC dimpled and slotted rotors and EBC green stuff pads on the front of my car and im pretty impressed with them. the dimpled and slotted rotors are nosier than the stockers but that stop alot better and it takes alot longer for the brake fade to set in on long stops from high speed. while riding next to a fence or another car with the windows down and the radio off is sounds kinda like i have base ball cards stuck in my wheels. i decided i should step up to some better rotors since mine were heat cracked and did not stop very well.

 

[95blklsc]

We did a 454 engine block and internals and picked up 25 hp with NO machining.

Just dyno variation, temperature, humidity, and pressure could cause this just to name a few. Never mind the fact that you took the engine apart and rebuilt it.

I'm sure you put in new plug wires, plugs, and many other small wear items that may not have been new during the first dyno run.

The timing must be dialed in again when putting any distributer ignition system back on a motor, probably dialed it in a little better. When was the last time it was done before the dyno?

What about carb tuning, hard to believe someone wouldn't try to tweak the jets a little when they put their motor back in the car and started it up?

Were there any changes to the rest of the car while it was apart? Transmission flush maybe?

The laundry list of variables is endless........that was probably the most useless example I've heard.

What exactly would account for the decreased friction allowing for an additional 25hp, I don't see how a cryo treatment would do this even if the claims about surface harding were true?

 

[97blklsc]

Wow, your .02 isn't worth much. LOL

If anyone is interested, PM me if you want more real-life information, not internet disinformation.

Look bud,

There's no need to come in here and take a s**t on established members of the board. Now I might be biased because 95BLKLSC is a very good friend of mine, but for you the "Newbie" to walk into this conversation with nothing but anecdotal evidence and trample over what was so far a quality discussion is absolutely needless.

I'm asking you to be polite and offer your experiences in an intelligent, reasonable, and respectful manner. If you can't do this, then trust me no matter what evidence you may have about any particular topic...your conversation will have ZERO credibility.

Oh, and don't go making a comment about my "Beginner" status on this board. I've contributed two very detailed tech articles and contribute here on a regular basis...I just happened to get here a bit later than I did on another Mark VIII forum.

Thanks,

-Domenic

 

[steve]

Just dyno variation, temperature, humidity, and pressure could cause this just to name a few. Never mind the fact that you took the engine apart and rebuilt it.

I'm sure you put in new plug wires, plugs, and many other small wear items that may not have been new during the first dyno run.

The timing must be dialed in again when putting any distributer ignition system back on a motor, probably dialed it in a little better. When was the last time it was done before the dyno?

What about carb tuning, hard to believe someone wouldn't try to tweak the jets a little when they put their motor back in the car and started it up?

Were there any changes to the rest of the car while it was apart? Transmission flush maybe?

The laundry list of variables is endless........that was probably the most useless example I've heard.

What exactly would account for the decreased friction allowing for an additional 25hp, I don't see how a cryo treatment would do this even if the claims about surface harding were true?

All very good points, i say BS as well you would see any gains that you could mesure.

It has been a while since I had strength of materials class and metallurgy but I believe cryo treating carbon metals helps control the transformation of austenite into martensite. It is a controlled quenching process. This is good for cutting tools and knife blades. Because you want a hard edge but you also don’t want it to brittle. I don’t see it’s application in brake rotors or other engine parts. Especially parts that get heated to high temps again.

 

[Roadboss]

I used to sell all that high dollar tooling (Gear cutting tools, broaches, spline rollers etc) and we never could justify the Cryo processed tools as a general rule (there were some applicataions such as knife blades that panned out).

 

[driller]

... (there were some applicataions such as knife blades that panned out).

Yes, like I said, thinner sections respond better to such treatment. While we may have seen some benefits in others, it wasn't necessarily enough to be conclusive and justify the costs involved.

 

[maxmk8]

I can tell you that it is night and day difference. Tell you what, since I have pretty much have 2000 Cobra R brakes on my Mark with upgraded Baer rotors that have the following features, l have posted below what I found doing a google search for some published write-ups.

Keep in mind this is a single stop. YMMV. We all know what will happen to the stock Mark brakes after a couple panic stops... Don't follow me too close now...


GT3: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 98

2000 Cobra R: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 109

GT2:Braking 60-0 mph, ft 110

Z06: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 111

2003 Cobra: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 121

1998 Lincoln Mark VIII: Braking 60-0 mph, ft 122

Something doesn't make much sense here... an 03 cobra has about the same weight etc as the mark... and it stops in 121 feet... so this is suggesting that the stock 11.5" 1 piston calipers are as good as the Cobras?!
the stock mark VIII brakes that I had felt inferior to the cobra units... but perhaps it was just a feeling...

BTW the COBRA R was a stripped mustang therefore it had much better stopping distances.

New M3 does it less than 100 feet also

 

[mlschultz]

I know Max... Does not seem right to me either why the 03 Cobra is right there with the Mark. I bet there is a much larger spread on the third try, when the fade factor takes hold. Like I said, I found the numbers in different road test articles on the web when the cars were new. Nothing scientific here.

I think the Cobra R is roughly 500 pounds lighter than the Mark. The 996 is touted to have the best braking system on any car. Again, no real proof other than someones opinion on the net...

The M3 does not surprise me one bit. I have had the chance to look up close at quite a few high end German cars while on the rack at Aric's shop, and I can't believe how well these cars are put together. Who would think that a 5 series BMW has front bumper fresh air ducts for the brakes.

 

[sleeper]

Cryo treating is similar to heat treating. It has to do more with the rate of change of temperature than the temperatures themselves. You can do the same thing going cold or going hot. It's definitely a bit more complex than that, but there is certainly value in cryogenically treating parts. Whether this has any effect on longevity of a rotor on a passenger car, i cannot say.

I found that with decent ceramic pads and good-quality NAPA rotors, I could beat the hell out of the brakes on my mark VIII with no problem.

In most cases, brake pedal pulsation is not due to warpage. It is due to uneven transfer of pad material to the rotor. If you come off the highway and stop, and hold your foot on the brake, you will likely leave an imprint of the brake pad on the rotor, and in some cases you can change the grain structure of the metal in that location. This will lead to a pulsation down the road.

I've found that whenever the brakes on my navigator start to pulsate, I beat the hell out of them, and it goes away. Get up to speed, lay into the brakes hard, repeat until you know they're damn hot. Then when you stop DO NOT hold your foot on the brake with the car stopped. Creep up slowly, or release the brake and put it in neutral. Better yet, maintain a steady speed until they cool down. This will usually cure a brake pulsation.

 

[logres]

Didn't mean to start a war here, but...

1. If racing teams are doing cryo treatment with their own machine, it must do something.

2. I would guess that maybe the 25hp in that 454 might be a result of decreased uniform expansion of the block as it heats up - better compression...just a guess here.

3. If cryo treatment increases the life of bus and truck drums by double or triple, again, it must be doing something.

4. Dave, you may be right on the pulsation. My dad (master mechanic - 50 years experience) looked at the old rotors and commented that at least 50% of the surface was covered with superheated burn marks, altering the hardness and friction of those areas. Pulsation could occur when hitting those areas.

I'm going off of hearsay here...just some comments.

 

[Ford nut]

I used to sell all that high dollar tooling (Gear cutting tools, broaches, spline rollers etc) and we never could justify the Cryo processed tools as a general rule (there were some applicataions such as knife blades that panned out).

Yes, like I said, thinner sections respond better to such treatment. While we may have seen some benefits in others, it wasn't necessarily enough to be conclusive and justify the costs involved.

Ditto, I have been making tools for over ten years "cutting tools broaches stepdrills form tools ect" and have been in machining since 1979.
Been there done that with Cryogenic never had any improvement on any tooling.

 

[TwinTurbo MarkVIII]

Just the fact that you own a a set up to do cryo work does not make you a trusted source of information. I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you, I have nothing to gain. If you would like to cite some scientific tests or results I'm all ears.

Opened up a hornets nest, eh?

There are those non-believers that need the scientific data tossed in front of them. If you can't repeat the process, you can't measure it. Simple as that.

There is plenty of 'evidence' floating on the web.

I have to laugh. We went to a NAPA convention as we are dealers and talked the President about offering an upgrade to treated rotors. He said he knows all about it and said listen, we in the business to sell parts. Make them last longer doesn't help that goal. End of meeting.

I'll let you dig a while. I did, for 2 years before plopping the money down.

 

[95blklsc]

Opened up a hornets nest, eh?

There are those non-believers that need the scientific data tossed in front of them. If you can't repeat the process, you can't measure it. Simple as that.

There is plenty of 'evidence' floating on the web.

I have to laugh. We went to a NAPA convention as we are dealers and talked the President about offering an upgrade to treated rotors. He said he knows all about it and said listen, we in the business to sell parts. Make them last longer doesn't help that goal. End of meeting.

I'll let you dig a while. I did, for 2 years before plopping the money down.

I'm not basing anything on web evidence, hearsay isn't worth much to me. That is exactly why I'm shooting all of your examples full of holes. Did you read ANYTHING that I posed? You don't have any intelligent response to my questions or statements aside from ANOTHER STORY?

I'm not sure what you mean by "If you can't repeat the process, you can't measure it. Simple as that." If you can't measure something how do you know if it is effective?

I'm glad you have a business that is making you money, I'm not trying to put a damper on that. I'm making it known to a club member that I feel it is useless based on data and hard evidence to spend the extra money on that process, when for the same or less money you can buy a good quality rotor that will perform excellent for any street or mild auto cross application.

SIMPLE AS THAT

 

[TwinTurbo MarkVIII]

For clarification purposes, the '454' tested was actually a SB2 350. We use the term 454 because it is the most recognizable term related to engines. You say '454' and people eeeew and ahhhh. That said, the motor in question is a small block chevy built to nascar SB2 specs. We have done parts for the R07 358 but have not conducted the same back to back. Virtually every race team uses cryo treated blocks, heads, cranks, valves, etc. Call some teams. Maybe they will say they do. I doubt it. Nobody says a peep about what they do or don't do.00

Just dyno variation, temperature, humidity, and pressure could cause this just to name a few. Never mind the fact that you took the engine apart and rebuilt it.

1) No dyno variation. Used the same nascar engine dyno.
2) Humidity and temperature controlled room.
3) Motor was broken down and put back to same torque specs. They build 20 motors at a time. Exact same. Less than 1% (8hp) variance.
4) Dynanometer and a Spintron were used.

I'm sure you put in new plug wires, plugs, and many other small wear items that may not have been new during the first dyno run.

No items were changed.

The timing must be dialed in again when putting any distributer ignition system back on a motor, probably dialed it in a little better. When was the last time it was done before the dyno?

Exact same fuel and timing.

What about carb tuning, hard to believe someone wouldn't try to tweak the jets a little when they put their motor back in the car and started it up?

No tweaking.

Were there any changes to the rest of the car while it was apart? Transmission flush maybe?

Engine only. No car.

The laundry list of variables is endless........that was probably the most useless example I've heard.

We tried our best to eliminate every variable. If the results couldn't be traced, the test would have worthless to us and the customer.

What exactly would account for the decreased friction allowing for an additional 25hp, I don't see how a cryo treatment would do this even if the claims about surface harding were true?

Cryo changes the microstructure of the metal. It smooths it out. Best way to describe it...like going from 800 to 1000 grit sandpaper.

The results conclusively showed that cryoing reduced friction. Period.

Which is also why it works on rotors and pads. It 'increases' the surface area of the rotor while making the rotor 'smoother'. So the pad lasts longer, the rotor surface is smoother and harder, and heat is better absorbed by the increase in surface area.

 

[TwinTurbo MarkVIII]

I'm not basing anything on web evidence, hearsay isn't worth much to me. That is exactly why I'm shooting all of your examples full of holes. Did you read ANYTHING that I posed? You don't have any intelligent response to my questions or statements aside from ANOTHER STORY?

Slow down a bit. Give me chance to respond. I have businesses I have to run. Can't waste a day on this but I'll be happy to respond when I can.

I'm not sure what you mean by "If you can't repeat the process, you can't measure it. Simple as that." If you can't measure something how do you know if it is effective?

Exactly, if it can't be measured, it is worthless. The hardest part is controlling variables. Took 2 years of testing to convince the bus people it worked. And that was only after hearing from their employees about the conditions of the parts that were pulled.

I'm glad you have a business that is making you money, I'm not trying to put a damper on that. I'm making it known to a club member that I feel it is useless based on data and hard evidence to spend the extra money on that process, when for the same or less money you can buy a good quality rotor that will perform excellent for any street or mild auto cross application.

SIMPLE AS THAT

I don't do cryo to make money. (sure, it is nice to make a few bucks here and there but I don't do this for a living so no sweat off the 'ol sack if you know what I mean). In fact I would say I lost more money doing free trials. It gets our foot in the door for our motor oil and bearings. We do it for bragging rights. We have done motors and bearings for some of the top guys in karting. Our oil was just accepted as one of 3 to be used exclusively with one of the major go-kart associations. We have Yamaha 6hp motors doing 16-18 hp with all cryo parts (and a lot of machining), oil and bearings.

 

[TwinTurbo MarkVIII]

Look bud,

There's no need to come in here and take a s**t on established members of the board.

Been around since the 'Cal' board started.

Challenging is not taking a 's**t'.