Neutral Out Condition

KStromberg

KStromberg

VIII looking for 8s
I have had a lot of work done to the Lincoln lately. One of the things that was done was a lower mile(20K) rebuild out of a newer Crown Vic was put in due to the fact that my installer thought the fluid in my original was contaminated with clutch material. It indeed was nasty looking.

I agreed to the newer tranny seeing that a 3800 rpm stall converter and JMOD was going to compliment this tranny.

Here's my situation:

At around 30-35 mph when the car should shift into 3rd, rather it slips into neutral. Mind you this is ONLY on lighter throttle. I can either let off the gas when this happens, rpms will drop and the gear will engage, or else, I can throttle hard and "punch through" the condition. The fluid level is fine and color is normal.

Am I dealing with a sensor like the MLP here or am I dealing with a shadetree installer that sold me a bunk tranny? :mad:


Is there a special diagnostic port for reading possible tranny codes?
 
Sure sounds like it could be the MLPS. It may simply be out of alignment.

The tranny codes will be scanned just like the OBDII engine codes.
 
driller said:
Sure sounds like it could be the MLPS. It may simply be out of alignment.

The tranny codes will be scanned just like the OBDII engine codes.
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Thanks driller. I guess the plus here so far is that after reading the codes the other day when I had problems with the chip making contact, no tranny codes were part of that list.

Here is where my skepticism arises. If this guy couldn't complete the simple task of cleaning the silver solder mask off of the J-port so that the chip makes sufficient contact, I am guessing it is also very possible that he didn't properly align the MLP sensor so that it works properly.

I don't know how else to put it other than this. When a person does a "rush" job on a car project, things like this are bound to happen. I already had to take it back to have him replace a tranny dispstick tube seal that was leaking like a sieve. He already admitted to me his apprehension there, but he didn't have the stupid seal on hand, so he went with it. :rolleyes: I am crossing my fingers at this point. If the MLP sensor is not to blame, then I have a more serious matter at hand here and may have to take full advantage of this 1 year warranty that he claims to have on his work.

Is this sensor going to be a bear to get at now that my exhaust is in place?

Thanks again!
 
KStromberg said:
Is this sensor going to be a bear to get at now that my exhaust is in place?
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With my dual 2-1/2" exhaust - it's a bit tight but it can be managed.

Image000.jpg
 
I have gotten pretty fed up with this guy and am going to take it to a tranny shop to have them look into this matter. I am getting tired of being told it is in the tune. He is telling me to throw away my SCT chip and of course he conveniently has a Diablo tune for me. BULLCRAP!:mad:

I thought this install could be the beginning of a good relationship and I could be a potential customer of his, but now it is looking pretty grim.

I've already missed one LCOC event because the car was getting modded much later than he said. Now I am looking at missing another event here if I don't get this car in for this issue.
 
Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry9700/5.0.0.405 Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

budpytko said:
Best way to find out is to go back to stock tune. If tranny is STILL messed up, you got him!
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Not really... Ask Lonnie, it's always the tune that is the blame. I don't know how tuners put up with it.

He will say the tune burned up yada yada and took out this which caused that...
 
Well, the MLP sensor was replaced today and I even test drove it without the tune. The condition still persists. The o2 sensor leads are electrical taped, the front pump seal is leaking slightly, and there is a tiny exhaust leak at one of the welds.

Out of all these things, the tranny I am most concerned about. I cannot believe the hack job that I paid money for. :frown:
 
Kstrom, how did you know about this tuner guy and what made you choose him? Sounds like you might have made a mistake. Was he highly recommended by someone here?
 
ViiiKiller said:
Kstrom, how did you know about this tuner guy and what made you choose him? Sounds like you might have made a mistake. Was he highly recommended by someone here?
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He was not recommended by anyone, but I do know he is highly respected over at TCCOA. His name is Dave Dahlke and he has been doing tunes for Bill Evanhoff for the last 3 years. What leads you to believe that a mistake was made as far as the tuner? I have already determined that this problem is not related to a tuning issue in any way. Even Alan over at Dirty Dog performance who built the transmission and rear end for our own "driller" told me that he has never seen a neutral-out condition caused by a tuning issue.
 
I've went back and re-read your posts and I am wondering when the condition started.

So you have a later model tranny with a modified valve body, correct?

I'm just trying to piece together the facts relevant to the symptom.

Does it only do it on the 2-3 upshift? All the time or just sometimes?
 
KStromberg said:
He was not recommended by anyone, but I do know he is highly respected over at TCCOA. His name is Dave Dahlke and he has been doing tunes for Bill Evanhoff for the last 3 years. What leads you to believe that a mistake was made as far as the tuner? I have already determined that this problem is not related to a tuning issue in any way. Even Alan over at Dirty Dog performance who built the transmission and rear end for our own "driller" told me that he has never seen a neutral-out condition caused by a tuning issue.
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When I had a SuperChips tuner originally designed for like 94-98 Mustangs, I got the exact same symptoms of extreme slipping or neutral when it should shift into third.
The tuner is pretty old, originally bought and installed in a '97 V-8 T-bird, on which, it did not have this slipping condition condition. When I used it on my mark, the only options it would give me to do was firm up the shifts and change shifting points (as opposed to the options that were available on the t-bird and my friends 97 Mustang GT which include functional options of changing shift points, octane based tuning, fan turn on temps etc.). However changing the shift point on the tuner never actually did anything on my 98 Mark base, only the firmness option did.
As soon as I installed the tune it would slip going into third, as soon as I uninstalled it it would drive fine. I could avoid the slippage however by using the o/d off button in the shift knob until I was into third gear speed range, then it would shift normal with the extra pressure from the tuner when I put o/d back on.
 
driller said:
I've went back and re-read your posts and I am wondering when the condition started.

So you have a later model tranny with a modified valve body, correct?

I'm just trying to piece together the facts relevant to the symptom.

Does it only do it on the 2-3 upshift? All the time or just sometimes?
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The condition started immediately after I got the car back with the mods installed. He test drove it that night and got it to do it once and he said it was the converter, and then later blamed it on the tune. I asked him via text message(since he doesnt wanna talk personally) what year this newer tranny is. All he said was "SAME" leading me to believe it is out of a 1998 Crown Vic. The valve body on this transmission is the one out of my old tranny. I had a Factory Tech Separator Plate kit installed with new accumulators and springs. It neutrals out at about 30 mph in 3rd gear before going into lockup at 37 mph. I think this would be 3-4 then:confused: It does it EVERY time on lighter throttle. On harder throttle, it will not neutral at all.

On the tune, everything was accounted for as far as mods and calibrated accordingly. I opted to have him leave the transmission parameters alone. In other words, I dont think the tuner messed with the line pressure at all.
 
calisonic said:
When I had a SuperChips tuner originally designed for like 94-98 Mustangs, I got the exact same symptoms of extreme slipping or neutral when it should shift into third.
The tuner is pretty old, originally bought and installed in a '97 V-8 T-bird, on which, it did not have this slipping condition condition. When I used it on my mark, the only options it would give me to do was firm up the shifts and change shifting points (as opposed to the options that were available on the t-bird and my friends 97 Mustang GT which include functional options of changing shift points, octane based tuning, fan turn on temps etc.). However changing the shift point on the tuner never actually did anything on my 98 Mark base, only the firmness option did.
As soon as I installed the tune it would slip going into third, as soon as I uninstalled it it would drive fine. I could avoid the slippage however by using the o/d off button in the shift knob until I was into third gear speed range, then it would shift normal with the extra pressure from the tuner when I put o/d back on.
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I can also work around the neutral-out condition by turning the o/d off. I can then turn it back on around lock-up for example, and then it will neutral out. Now if I get far enough into 4th gear after lock-up like say about 55mph or just throttle hard and turn it back on, it won't neutral. Make sense? :frown:
 
KStromberg said:
It does it EVERY time on lighter throttle. On harder throttle, it will not neutral at all.
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This may be a stretch but it sounds pressure related. When at heavy throttle, more pressure is applied then when at light throttle.

I would discuss with the tuner or someone very familiar with these transmissions. It may be a simple fix in the tune by adjusting the line pressure during the shift(s)? If it is the 3-4 shift, the OD may not be applying before 3rd drops out under light throttle.
 
Here is some crappy phone quality videos I made concerning the issue.

In this first one, I am just light on the throttle and you can see it neutral out around 30mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzkmMRbzRR4



In this second video, it is a little bit tougher to tell without actually being there. I throttled a little harder this time and it shifts ok. BUT, when I let off the gas at that spot, I can feel the tranny is in neutral in the seat of my pants.(Again, hard to show u when you're not in the car) Then if you watch the tachometer you can feel it THUNK into gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H47btvs2aro



I am going to try that advice John and send the chip back to have the transmission parameters played with.

NOTE: I was home for about 20 minutes. I went back in the car to go make videos and the car shifted fine for 15 minutes. I couldn't get the darn car to act up like it was camera shy or something. BUT, after about 15 min. it started acting up again and persisted the whole time.
 
KStromberg said:
Then if you watch the tachometer you can feel it THUNK into gear.
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It's very difficult to tell, but that THUNK (and drop in the tach) looks like the TC locking up.

You can see if that is the case by lightly pressing the brake preventing the converter from locking. Then repeat with the brake off. You should be able to lock and unlock the TC almost on command once you have some practice. On mine, I can use the TC lockup like another gear in the twisty mountain roads.
 
driller said:
It's very difficult to tell, but that THUNK (and drop in the tach) looks like the TC locking up.

You can see if that is the case by lightly pressing the brake preventing the converter from locking. Then repeat with the brake off. You should be able to lock and unlock the TC almost on command once you have some practice. On mine, I can use the TC lockup like another gear in the twisty mountain roads.
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Yes, I believe that's what it is John BUT the tranny is in neutral right before that point which leads to a very noticeable THUNK like someone kicks the back of my driver's seat. It is definitely more harsh than it should be which I think is attributed to the fact that it is in a neutral state right before it THUNKS into lock-up in the second video. It's like doing a minor neutral drop at that speed. I can't imagine this is good for my transmission. :eek:
 
KStromberg said:
I can't imagine this is good for my transmission. :eek:
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No, it's not. Other than for limited diagnosis, if you can avoid it, by all means do so. If that means driving with OD off and then selecting OD when it will not neutral out, that's what you need to do until the situation is resolved.
 
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