46callaway
New member
Are the runners the same length?
1st gen vs. 2nd gen intake manifold
- Thread starter 46callaway
- Start date
Ponyfreak and I cut apart a Gen 2 intake. We found that the design is terrible:
The runners favor the secondaries on some cylinders, the primaries on others, and some are equally distributed. This gives unpredictable characteristics to performance.
The intake design itself is flawed due to the way the intake is cast. It does not have seperate runners like the Gen 1, it has 8 sections inside the plenum that each turn into runners. It does not distribute air well due to how the runners are shaped.
The throttlebody to plenum transition is choked, not allowing air to flow well from the TB to the plenum.
The work that you would put into making a Gen 2 intake flow well would far exceed any gains you MAY see from attempting to improve it. You would be better off paying for a Cobra. Keep in mind, I am one of the most frugal car modifiers out there. If I would bite the bullet and pay for the Cobra intake, that's probably the way to go.
Good luck.
The runners favor the secondaries on some cylinders, the primaries on others, and some are equally distributed. This gives unpredictable characteristics to performance.
The intake design itself is flawed due to the way the intake is cast. It does not have seperate runners like the Gen 1, it has 8 sections inside the plenum that each turn into runners. It does not distribute air well due to how the runners are shaped.
The throttlebody to plenum transition is choked, not allowing air to flow well from the TB to the plenum.
The work that you would put into making a Gen 2 intake flow well would far exceed any gains you MAY see from attempting to improve it. You would be better off paying for a Cobra. Keep in mind, I am one of the most frugal car modifiers out there. If I would bite the bullet and pay for the Cobra intake, that's probably the way to go.
Good luck.
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I wonder why 2nd gen cars with simple 8 psi vortech kits show better dyno numbers than 1st gen cars with similiar setups.
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Airflow characteristics are less critical when you're boosted. I'd guess that 2nd Gens perform better because of OBDII and the greater flexibility in programming. The only crossover year is 96.
I wonder why 2nd gen cars with simple 8 psi vortech kits show better dyno numbers than 1st gen cars with similiar setups.
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Airflow characteristics are less critical when you're boosted. I'd guess that 2nd Gens perform better because of OBDII and the greater flexibility in programming. The only crossover year is 96.
driller
El Presidente
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[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]I wonder why 2nd gen cars with simple 8 psi vortech kits show better dyno numbers than 1st gen cars with similiar setups.[/div]Airflow characteristics are less critical when you're boosted. I'd guess that 2nd Gens perform better because of OBDII and the greater flexibility in programming. The only crossover year is 96.
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I agree with that. Most any tuner would tell you the OBD-II will give more flexibility and performance enhancing options over the EEC-IV.
[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]I wonder why 2nd gen cars with simple 8 psi vortech kits show better dyno numbers than 1st gen cars with similiar setups.[/div]Airflow characteristics are less critical when you're boosted. I'd guess that 2nd Gens perform better because of OBDII and the greater flexibility in programming. The only crossover year is 96.
[/div]
I agree with that. Most any tuner would tell you the OBD-II will give more flexibility and performance enhancing options over the EEC-IV.
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In case you didn't notice this was kind of a rhetorical question. All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.
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Again, boost also mitigate's a lot of the 'inefficiency' of the 2nd Gen intake.
In case you didn't notice this was kind of a rhetorical question. All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.
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Again, boost also mitigate's a lot of the 'inefficiency' of the 2nd Gen intake.
driller
El Presidente
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All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.
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Yeah..., you keep telling yourself that Mr. Boost. :+
Every one says the Cobra manifold is the best too, but I don't have one.
All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.
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Yeah..., you keep telling yourself that Mr. Boost. :+
Every one says the Cobra manifold is the best too, but I don't have one.
[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]
[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.[/div]Yeah..., you keep telling yourself that Mr. Boost. :+Every one says the Cobra manifold is the best too, but I don't have one.
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Not everyone said that. I didn't have one either, and I had one of the fastest NA times of any Mark VIII.
Jeremi, no one is disputing the fact that you can still make power with a Gen 2 manifold. However, there are gains to be had from utilizing a different intake. The stock one HAS to be a power inhibitor.
[div class="dcquote"][strong]Quote[/strong]All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.[/div]Yeah..., you keep telling yourself that Mr. Boost. :+Every one says the Cobra manifold is the best too, but I don't have one.
[/div]
Not everyone said that. I didn't have one either, and I had one of the fastest NA times of any Mark VIII.
Jeremi, no one is disputing the fact that you can still make power with a Gen 2 manifold. However, there are gains to be had from utilizing a different intake. The stock one HAS to be a power inhibitor.
sleeper
Former LOD President
I picked up about 5 mph by changing from a gen 2 manifold to a cobra manifold. With just the cobra intake, exhaust, and a tune, i ran a 15 flat at 100 mph in my '97. I don't believe I ever saw 96 mph with the gen 2 manifold (also with a tune and exhaust). Headers, gears, and converter knocked it down to 13.9 at 100.8.
46callaway
New member
My 98 LSC only has SCT chip, K&N conical, and Dynomax Bullet mufflers, and it traps 97MPH at Sears Point, which means at Sac it would trap 98MPH. This is faster than my 95 LSC was with the same mods.
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In case you didn't notice this was kind of a rhetorical question. All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.
[/div]
This is the absolute dumbest misconception people have.
Any increases made to increase HP n/a will DIRECTLY correspond when forced induction is added into the equation. Only in some cases of camshaft choice will this not be true.
I have only seen two supercharged Gen 1 mark VIII;s with the stock intake installed. One on my car and the other on MN Keith's car. SO i have no idea where you have seen Gen 1's dyno lower than Gen 2's.
In case you didn't notice this was kind of a rhetorical question. All I'm saying is that 2nd gen manifold is not that bad as people make it out to be, especially with little extra air.
[/div]
This is the absolute dumbest misconception people have.
Any increases made to increase HP n/a will DIRECTLY correspond when forced induction is added into the equation. Only in some cases of camshaft choice will this not be true.
I have only seen two supercharged Gen 1 mark VIII;s with the stock intake installed. One on my car and the other on MN Keith's car. SO i have no idea where you have seen Gen 1's dyno lower than Gen 2's.
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My 98 LSC only has SCT chip, K&N conical, and Dynomax Bullet mufflers, and it traps 97MPH at Sears Point, which means at Sac it would trap 98MPH. This is faster than my 95 LSC was with the same mods.
[/div]
I would bet a nice crisp $100 bill that this is purely due to camshaft timing. The stock cams in these engines can be WAY off.
My 98 LSC only has SCT chip, K&N conical, and Dynomax Bullet mufflers, and it traps 97MPH at Sears Point, which means at Sac it would trap 98MPH. This is faster than my 95 LSC was with the same mods.
[/div]
I would bet a nice crisp $100 bill that this is purely due to camshaft timing. The stock cams in these engines can be WAY off.
Mad1stGen
Booster
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SO i have no idea where you have seen Gen 1's dyno lower than Gen 2's.
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There are quite a few, with more and less advanced installs (yeah I was surprised to learn that too).
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1166366172-PS93M8.JPG
I'd be stupid to say that better intake doesn't help, but depending on your goals the stock one is fine and can be utilized.
Not everyone is a hardcore drag racer either.
If we agreed on everything, this place wouldn't be called "discussion forums".
SO i have no idea where you have seen Gen 1's dyno lower than Gen 2's.
[/div]
There are quite a few, with more and less advanced installs (yeah I was surprised to learn that too).
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1166366172-PS93M8.JPG
I'd be stupid to say that better intake doesn't help, but depending on your goals the stock one is fine and can be utilized.
Not everyone is a hardcore drag racer either.
If we agreed on everything, this place wouldn't be called "discussion forums".