Brain-Picker

KStromberg

KStromberg

Vortech kicked in yo
Ok, since transmission tuning has NEVER been discussed on this forum before I thought I'd start a thread. :rolleyes::p:D

Anyways, the torque converter will lock 2nd through 4th. I am VERY close to running an unlocked tune with a delayed lockup in 3rd gear. I now know of two friends of mine running this tune and the one friend just ran a faster time at the track on the NA tune with the torque converter commanded unlocked in 2nd gear and delayed quite a bit in 3rd. I have been greatly mystified by my friend's seemingly perfect shifting car and now his friend is running his car using this same concept and he claims it is faster and has timeslips to prove it.

I am REALLY close here guys. I just like the way these cars perform using this concept. So why does an NA Mark VIII with less than 300rwhp have to waste time locking second gear again? Before you throw knives, check out these before and after videos of Cameron's Crown Vic. ;)

Locking tune:
http://www.youtube.com/user/cameron878#p/u/7/YOqpIYQPbFs

Unlocked tune with delayed lockup in 3rd at about 95mph:
http://www.youtube.com/user/cameron878#p/u/2/6aM8zGNhS1g


Ok, so be easy on me guys but here is why I have overthought this concept for a long time. I'm friends with a whole bunch of 2-valver 4200# Crown Vics that are running pretty much the same mods as me like gears, JMOD, headers, and the whole bit and they have all been running 13s for a long time and here I am. I ran with 4.10s and cracked off a 14.1 with the biggest fail bog at the end of the track and a silly trap speed while they are running down the track unlocked the whole time. I may have to take the leap of faith on this one and contrary to what everyone says about locking the converter as soon as possible I'm taking the road less traveled. Although, I believe there are plenty of 6 and 7 second outlaws out on the tracks running non-locking converters. :wave:
 
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driller

driller

El Presidente
Ummm... yeah. :rolleyes:

All I can say is I tried it and the car ran SLOWER. 3 or 4 tenths slower IIRC. Same day, same track, back to back.

The tuner and I were adjusting shift points and timing at a private track rental and he came up with the idea that the converter was bogging me down when it locked. So he wanted me to try the same tune with the converter unlocked.

After a couple trial runs, it was obvious that wasn't working so we went back to the old 'locked' tune.

It all has to do with the acceleration rate of the car and the torque multiplication of the converter.
 
X

XLRVIII

New member
comparing apples to oranges never works.

while the mods and weights might be similar.

you forget to consider a very important aspect.
"parasitic losses".

you have your mind locked on "what is the same".
you need to look into what is DIFFERENT between these two platforms.

"THINK" about it.
 
X

XLRVIII

New member
also, take it fromt someone who has "been there".

"chasing numbers, is one of the most unrewarding frustrating experiences you can subject yourself to.
Each trip to the track will be an almost guaranteed dissapointment.

"stop chasing numbers, and for the love of GOD stop chasing "what the crown vic" guys are doing.

One should be happy to be at the track, enjoying your car.
not beating your brain about "why my car doesnt run this particular number".

Accept it for what it runs, paint a dial in on the car and start winning some races/money.
 
X

XLRVIII

New member
mike gilberts 93 went 13.98 with ONLY 373's and exhaust.
with the tiffany mod it went 13.86

my car, same gears, exhaust, tune, c&l maf went 14.37
put the stock maf back on the car, instantly picked .2 and ran 14.18
tiffany mod netted 14.06
 
KStromberg

KStromberg

Vortech kicked in yo
Ok, the tune is going to lock the converter in second and delay the lock-up in third. That for sure is going to happen. The car would probably drive much better even if I had the tune setup the way it was when I ran my 14.1. Now with a new intake and slightly steeper gears, I will have it calibrated accordingly BUT without a doubt lock-up is no longer going to occur at 80-82 mph (or about 4800-5000rpms) in 3rd. It's obvious the car needs to be more at the top of the powerband before the lock occurs as to reduce the drop-back in rpms that occurs. I'm thinking 90 mph. We'll see what the tuner thinks. Either way, I would like the converter to lock in 3rd gear more towards the top of the powerband. I'm thinking even having it lock in 3rd at 5500 rpms is going to be better. And with the shift points brought down out off the insane levels, the double-clutching effect will be gone and I won't have the hiccup into second gear when it shifts which also wastes a bunch of time moving forward. Those two things and I'll be good again. The air injection is getting deleted and I'm putting the steedas on. One last bolt-on in my quest to prove that mid 13s are more than attainable out of a Gen2. I'm glad we got all of this rain recently. Next time I hit the track, it's going to count. ;)

Done thinking.....
 
driller

driller

El Presidente
Is the tuner going to the track? That's the ONLY way you're going to know where to set the lockup - trial and error - with a bit of guidance from a dyno-tune printout.

The 1st thing you need to nail down (after proper WOT A/F) is the shift points. THEN you can work on the converter lockup. Just fretting over whether or not it should or should not lockup or when it should lockup is doing nothing but throwing darts blindfolded.

This is all why I went with the SCT Pro Racer Package. And a wide band O2 meter. You have a huge advantage in tuning with the Gen2 as it is OBDII and much more easily datalog friendly.

  1. Base Tune @ Dyno-tune
  2. Tune optimum A/F @ WOT
  3. Tune optimum shift points
  4. Tune optimum TC lockup
(Note that 2 through 4 cannot be done on a dyno.)

IF you skip a step you are NOT getting all you can get because you have to backup and start over. If for example, you change the TC lockup and then later change the A/F or shift points, the TC lockup will not be where it should be for optimum results. It may be in the ballpark, but it will need optimized again.

Even further, just tuning the speed or rpm of the lockup is only a portion of the entire lockup process. What about load? What about the delay? What about the lockup rate? What about the lockup 'slip' rate?

\rant over
 
Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
XLRVIII said:
also, take it fromt someone who has "been there".

"chasing numbers, is one of the most unrewarding frustrating experiences you can subject yourself to.
Each trip to the track will be an almost guaranteed dissapointment.
Click to expand...
+1
Easy smeezy.

Tiffany mod ftmfw.
How much for a plane ticket to minneasnowta. :eek:
Boom...13sec pass.....number chasing over.
 
KStromberg

KStromberg

Vortech kicked in yo
XLRVIII said:
I apologize for overlooking this part, it got overlooked reading the technical wall of text
my bad
Click to expand...
Yeah, and that's why I titled the thread as such. :rolleyes: Whatever though, the advice is appreciated. I definitely don't want to run slower, but at this stage I could probably pull my chip and run your time on stock tune. :p
 
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X

XLRVIII

New member
so did you figure out the "difference"?

it was posed in a manner that would hopefully make you think and realize what i was talking about.

hint: not related to the powerplant or the tune or the gears
 
KStromberg

KStromberg

Vortech kicked in yo
XLRVIII said:
so did you figure out the "difference"?

it was posed in a manner that would hopefully make you think and realize what i was talking about.

hint: not related to the powerplant or the tune or the gears
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm brain dead or tired. Parasitic losses? Paralysis of analysis perhaps? :eek:
 
X

XLRVIII

New member
as i mentioned, forget similar mods.
look at what is different between the two platforms your comparing.

not the engine, that is an obvious difference but it is something equally as obvious.
 
J

J

OCCUPY LoD :)
Simple answer...it's a Gen 2. Gonna take WAY more mods to break 14 seconds then a Gen 1 or a Vic.
 
Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
J said:
Simple answer...it's a Gen 2. Gonna take WAY more mods to break 14 seconds then a Gen 1 or a Vic.
Click to expand...
I don't think that is what Tommy is talking about.
I think it is a basic thing hes getting at.

Your ET is found in 60ft time....

driller said:
You have a huge advantage in tuning with the Gen2 as it is OBDII and much more easily datalog friendly.
Click to expand...
 
KStromberg

KStromberg

Vortech kicked in yo
J said:
Simple answer...it's a Gen 2. Gonna take WAY more mods to break 14 seconds then a Gen 1 or a Vic.
Click to expand...
I'm already there with my fail tune. :p

Next week I will make some videos with the new tune and you can all tell me what you think. I don't want to sound optimistic too soon here, but I think the car is going to perform well.
 
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