Cam talk

Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
First off lets assume the mark has gears, tune, stall convertor ~auto or stick~ cobra intake an a free flowing exhaust.
Engine is on the stand.

1) Degreeing stock cams.
Are the stock cams keyed? I read they were not I would think it would be time well spent to key and degree the stockers.
2) Used cams.
As these engines get older the choices for used factory cams open up.
Info I have found.
Stock Mark VIII cams:
Intake: 186 @ 0.050"/0.392" lift
Exhaust: 194 @ 0.050"/0.390" lift
From here: http://www.lincolnsofdistinction.or...php?33671-cobra-cam-swap&highlight=cobra+cams

Cobra cams
Mach 1, 03/04 Cobra, Aviator, Marauder, Navigator
Intake: 184 deg @ .050/.397" lift Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397" lift
114 LCs

96-98 Cobra
intake PN#s
F6ZE-6A270-AB crosses to F6ZZ-6250-AA
F6ZE-6A271-AB crosses to F6ZZ-6250-BA
Intake: 202-204 deg @.050/ .397 lift
Exhaust: 196 deg @.050/.397 lift
114/114 LCs

99/01 Cobra
Intake: 200 deg @.050/.397 lift
Exhaust: 196 deg @.050/.397 lift
114 LCs

FR500 (M-6550-T46)
intake: 212 deg @.050 /.472 lift
exhaust: 208 deg @.050 /.472 lift
109 LCs

GT Cams: (actual as tested numbers, not Ford specs)
Intake: 189 @ .050"/.424 lift
Exhaust: 190 @ .050"/.448" lift
The centerline is up for debate as this set tested at 122/118 but I think Ford states the LCs as 114/114

Cobra R specs:
Intake: .515'' lift 212 deg dur @.050
Exhaust: .468'' lift 212 deg dur @.050
From here:http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-68982.html

99-2001 lincoln continental cams
f2le-6a 273 .................................................. yf3e-6a 273 aa.......................
xr3e-6a 271............................................... ...yf3e-6a 271 ba.......................
f2le-6a 272............................................... .....yf3e-6a 272 aa......................
xr3e-6a 270............................................... ...yf3e-6a 270 ba.......................
The 99 intake cams are 202* duration which are almost as good as the 96-98 cobra cams and the 2001 intake cams are 194* duration. Most of these cars are not abused and are in better shape then the cobra heads are in. I want 350.00 for each set or 250.00 without cams if someone wants only the heads as long as the cams are sold first. The 2003 and 2004 cobra cams are only 184* by comparison. Both sets look about the same.
Click to expand...
From here:http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...7969-99-2001-heads-complete-teksid-block.html

All what I would consider to be good information If not please correct it we all know how the web is.

My thoughts: pick up a set of good used 99 conti intake cams, degree them in."price is right and not too hard to junk yard find for the price of used cobra cams you get a c heads to stock pile"

Maybe 2 deg advance??


Thoughts?
 
Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
Thought about it, but on this car with this engine it will stay b headed.
I have the b head stuff, will be keeping the runners too, stock cobra intake.
 
9

97MarkJA

New member
+1 quite a few didn't have keys. Through all the research I did on my cams I came across a lot installed with no keys and Arp hardware, some would grind a key to degree the cam leaving slop on the backside.
Adjustable gears are a option when installed correctly, components would be the best I've seen but aren't made anymore... they also cost as much as a set of cams in some cases.
I say you degree the cams, mill the keys to spec on all that fancy machinery you have at work there and call it a day. :)
 
Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
^
Your no fun :)
I have seen pics of stacked hunks of steel to kind of make a key, looks bad to say the least.
Looking at cobra cams, no time to junk yard hunt or junk yard wrenching I did find a set of 99 conti heads.... maybe if it was summer.
Still debating if advancing the cams would gain enough mid range for a street car to make it worth while, not looking for any high rpm power.

Keys would be burned on the EDM, no slop.
 
driller

driller

El Presidente
Ford nut said:
Still debating if advancing the cams would gain enough mid range for a street car to make it worth while, not looking for any high rpm power.
Click to expand...
As a general rule, it would not be worth advancing the cams for a mid range street car. Advancing the cams usually yield more top end at the expense of lower and mid-range torque.

To truly get a visualization of the magnitude of the effects of cam profiles and advance, it helps to invest in a virtual engine software package.

Degreeing the cams however is highly desirable even in stock form as it has been shown there can be a huge variance of the cam timing in stock form.
 
Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
driller said:
As a general rule, it would not be worth advancing the cams for a mid range street car. Advancing the cams usually yield more top end at the expense of lower and mid-range torque.
Click to expand...
I think that is backwards, info from here.
http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/CamSpecTerms.aspx

Advance improves low-end power and response. For a general summary of the affects of camshaft timing, refer to the following tables:
Advance
begins intake event sooner
opens intake valve sooner
builds more low-end torque
decreases piston-to-intake-valve clearance
increases piston-to-exhaust-valve clearance


Retard
delays intake event
opens intake valve later
builds more high-end power
increases piston-to-intake-valve clearance
decreases piston-to-exhaust-valve clearance

A real good read for those interested.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/svt-dohc/985293-info-needed-degreeing-96-98-cobra-cams.html
 
driller

driller

El Presidente
Ford nut said:
I think that is backwards, info from here.
http://www.lunatipower.com/Tech/Cams/CamSpecTerms.aspx

Advance improves low-end power and response. For a general summary of the affects of camshaft timing, refer to the following tables:
Advance
begins intake event sooner
opens intake valve sooner
builds more low-end torque
decreases piston-to-intake-valve clearance
increases piston-to-exhaust-valve clearance


Retard
delays intake event
opens intake valve later
builds more high-end power
increases piston-to-intake-valve clearance
decreases piston-to-exhaust-valve clearance
Click to expand...
A lot depends on pushrod vs. OHC and SOHC vs. DOHC.

I did a lot of research prior to the Boss 5.3L build in the Blue Flame and it's been a while but I suppose I could have it backwards. The primary visualization I came away with was the power and torque curves "pivoting" with advancing the cams. The pivot point (in rpms) was determined by the lobe separation angle (due to overlap) and the amount of power gain was proportional to the degrees advanced. Move the pivot point down lower in the rpm band and more gains could be afforded at higher rpms with less losses at lower rpms. Or move the pivot point up higher in the rpm band and more gains could be afforded at low and midrange rpms with less losses at higher rpms.

Tuning for power with cams can be done but it is very specific to the intended build.
 
9

97MarkJA

New member
Advancing the timing most defiantly improves low end torque, obviously you have a point at which the gain stops. Really you're moving the power lower in the rpm scale.
Drillers visual is actually a good one however instead of thinking of it as the cams think about it as when the event happens in the crank rotation.
Just remember on a doch motor in stock form that when you move one you move them all.
I have the cam tools and my dad bought the degree kit, together we have the entire set up. When your ready we can just run that thing up north and let him do it while we supervise :)
 
Ford nut

Ford nut

New member
That would be fun.
You installed FR500 cams right?
Straight up?
Did you use the centerline method?
Or at .05 lift?

Starting to think 6 deg advance from what na svt had posted.
I trust what he says, I have seen some of his short runner intake work.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
9

97MarkJA

New member
Specs are FR500 (M-6550-T46)
intake: 212 deg @.050 /.472 lift
exhaust: 208 deg @.050 /.472 lift
109LC

I needed FR500 cams to be more FI friendly and as long as the cams are at the right LCs they have worked great in quite a few setups. Especially B-heads that can take advantage of the flow. They were set at 109/116, this will give great pre-boost power and won't hurt upper rpm power, this also helps eliminate most of your boost bleed off of non FI cams. NA svt also help me out when I was working everything out, this is a proven setup.
 
B

billcu

Head Moderator
I guess I don't understand this, if these cams don't need keys, why would you want to use them? I would think they would be easier to adjust without them?
 
9

97MarkJA

New member
I'll post Hylands instructions for Degreeing 4-Valve Camshafts

Required Tools:

Ford service tool number T93P-9589-AH (camshaft lock tool)
Ford service tool number T93P-6256-A (camshaft positioning tool)
Dial indicator with 4-inch extension
Screw-in post for dial indicator
Positive-stop tool
Solid valve adjuster
Timing wheel
Pointer

1. Install the camshafts in the cylinder heads. Torque the camshaft caps using Ford pattern and torque values.

2. With the number-1 piston at top dead center, attach secondary camshaft gears and short chains, matching copper coated links to marks on gears. Use secondary camshaft gear part number F3LY-6256-A on late engines with integral key. Do not install camshaft keys. Ensure camshaft keyways are pointed down.

3. If stock or reground camshafts are being installed, positioning tool T93P-6256-A may be used to locate camshafts by inserting tool into slots in rear of camshafts. New billet camshafts will not have a slot that can be utilized.

4. Install the primary gears and chains, matching the copper coated links to the crankshaft and camshaft gears per the diagram.

5. Lock the camshafts with camshaft lock tool and torque the camshaft bolts to 95 ft-lbs.

6. Check the valve-adjuster preload. Using a collapsed valve adjuster, check the preload by installing the valve adjuster and rocker arm. With the rocker arm touching the camshaft base circle, mount the dial indicator so extension rests on the adjuster end of the rocker arm. Zero the dial indicator, and using the rocker-arm installation tool, cycle the valvespring up and down. Without the rocker arm losing contact with the camshaft, measure range of valve adjuster preload. The correct range of preload is .040 to .080 inch. In the case of camshafts that are reground on stock cores, it may be necessary to shim the valve adjuster to achieve the correct preload.

7. Install the timing wheel and pointer, set to top dead center.

8. Rotate crankshaft clockwise 90 degrees and install positive-stop tool in the number-1 spark plug hole.

9. Rotate the crankshaft clockwise until you reach the stop, and record the number displayed on the wheel.

10. Rotate the crankshaft counter-clockwise until you again reach the positive stop, and then record the number.

11. Split the difference and move the timing wheel to the center of the range of movement. For example: if the first reading was 42 degrees before TDC and the second was 44 degrees after TDC. In this case, the wheel should be moved so each end of the range of movement reads 43 degrees. The wheel is now centered. Check the readings in both directions one more time and remove the TDC tool.

12. Install the solid adjuster and rocker arm on the number-6 cylinder exhaust lobe.

13. Set the dial indicator extension on the valve retainer, and then zero indicator.

14. Rotate engine clockwise until .050 inches of valve opening is measured. Record the valve opening number observed on the degree wheel.

15. Continue rotating the crankshaft, measuring the total valve lift, and stop the rotation of the crankshaft when the valve is within .050 inches of the seat again. Record the valve closing number.

16. Using the camshaft lock tool, lock the camshaft and loosen the cam bolt.

17. With the camshaft still locked in place, rotate crankshaft to the desired closing point. There is a range of 3-4 degrees available with the slop in the camshaft gear key and the camshaft. If you need to move the camshaft more than the amount available, grind the integral key on the primary exhaust gear to allow a greater range of adjustment.

18. Torque the camshaft bolt to 95 ft-lbs and remove the lock.

19. Check open and close points as before and adjust as necessary.

20. Once the exhaust camshaft is degreed in, you can move to the intake camshaft, since the exhaust camshaft drives the intake camshaft. Any change in timing on the exhaust camshaft will require adjusting the intake camshaft.

21. With cylinder number 6 timed, move over to the passenger-side cylinder head, setting up on cylinder number 1. The intake camshaft on the passenger-side cylinder head will lag behind as the tensioner is compressed. It is necessary to hold the tensioner in the extended position, simulating the engine in a running condition, in order to properly time the passenger intake camshaft. Complete the checking and adjusting process, as previously done on the left head, and then you are finished.
 
L

lobird91

New member
The ideal option is the 96-98 Cobra cams at about 6 degrees, but for the cost/availability of 99 Conti parts I would probably go that route at the same 6 degrees. I actually learned something new here with the Conti parts being the same as the Cobra thats valuable info to have.

-Alan
 
S

Silver06S281

New member
I thought about installing 96-98 cobra cams in my 2 gen but after checking out and reading some installs i think ill hold off till its not a daily driver.
 
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