Looking for brake suggestions

[driller]

I posted before how I would like the terminator CE to have upgraded brakes. I am thinking of killing two birds with one stone and upgrading the Blue Flame's brakes and donating the current Cobra brake setup to the CE.

Seeking to lighten the rotating and unsprung mass for the drag strip, I have somewhat narrowed down the choices to AeroSpace, Baer, Strange or Wilwood.

First up, AeroSpace Components 4 Piston Pro Street setup:



Their kit features billet aluminum 4 piston calipers, 11-3/4" diameter, 13/16" vented rotors and billet aluminum rotor hats and brackets with grade 8 hardware.

Next up, the Baer 11" SS4+ Deep Stage Drag Race Brake System:



"This system features the S4 4-piston caliper mounted to a 11" 2 piece slot, drill, zinc plated rotor. The SS4+ is designed just like Baer's larger systems, but in a smaller package for 15" wheels. This is the first drag race system designed specifically for heavy, fast cars that might see street use. Rotors are vented, and calipers have dust seals. "

The we have the Strange Engineering Pro Series 2:



Like the others, their HD kit is a 4 piston billet aluminum caliper and billet aluminum mounts. The rotor is a 2 piece slotted steel 11-1/4" diameter rotor.

Finally the Wilwood Dynapro Radial Front Drag Brake Kit:



"NDPR forged billet, radial mount four piston calipers are used in this select group of drag racing kits. Specially designed radial caliper mount brackets bolt directly to the OE caliper mount, and provide secure and accurate mounting for the NDPR caliper. Kits with .81” rotors should be used on cars over 2,800 pound cars, or lighter cars running extreme speeds desiring increased rotor durability."

The Wilwood rotors are 11-3/4" diameter.

I already have SS braided brake lines but may need to get new lines depending upon which brake kit I decide to go with. I'm confident any of the above will be much lighter than what is currently on the car and should help performance at the track.

 

[tixer]

This looks like fun.

Not having any experience whatsoever with "performance brakes," feel free to disregard my thoughts entirely.

Immediately, I find myself drawn to both the Aerospace and Wilwood setups.

- They're the only two drilled without a "universal" bolt pattern, which would make me think they're a bit stronger. Although I suppose there may be some weight savings to be had by the extra holes...
- Both utilize larger diameter rotors than the others

The Aerospace one certainly appears to be the most "high-tech" of the bunch. If the company backs up the precision looks with performance, it definitely looks like the "fun" one to go with. Is the price of replacement rotors a factor? I assume with any of these, you'd be buying only from the manufacturer in question..

The Wilwood, to me, looks like the "tried and true" solution. An established, well known brand, and the write-up for the calipers themselves implies that mounting them will be trouble-free, which is reassuring.

The addition of Strange, is an interesting one to me, I don't know much about them, but I found myself eyeballing some of their rear shocks as possible replacements to my Mark a year or so back. The company definitely gives me that "dude in his garage" feeling, which I like. I've just never seen much information on them as a company. I'm definitely curious.

Baer, I always hear thrown around on the car repair TV shows, but I've never seen much real-world data on them. I can't shake the feeling that they're mostly marketing..

 

[driller]

I'm not sure on the Baer rotor hats, but the Strange rotor feature 'lightening' holes between the holes for the studs. They are 4-1/2" BC with the oversized lightening holes positioned between the stud holes but are not meant to be a universal lug pattern.

The 'Cobra' brake setup on the Blue Flame is actually a Baer product with the Rousch nameplate. No complaints, they are a damn fine brake setup and should make the CE a bit more comfortable to drive in a spirited fashion.

Strange Engineering has a solid foundation with the drag racing community in many areas of performance modifications. AeroSpace Components seems to be well accepted at the track as well.

The Wilwood setup looks much like you said, "tried and true". I like the way the caliper mounts to the bracket that essentially mounts to the stock spindle where the stock caliper bracket mounts.

Weight savings is the primary goal here as I suspect all candidates perform adequately - brake pad selection would likely determine performance differences. I do have some research to do on weight comparisons and effective piston area of the calipers.

 

[driller]

I'm having difficulties finding details on the Baer setup to adequately compare to the competition.

I have been leaning towards the Wilwood setup. I'm not sure I'm ready to saw off the lugs on the spindles for the Aerospace Components caliper bracket and I'm a bit shy of the hard core thin rotor setup of the Strange Engineering brakes having enough whoa to bring a heavy Lincoln down from triple digit speeds on a short track.

From what I can find, the Wilwood brake assembly weighs in just under 30 pounds compared to 66 pounds for a stock setup or even the 64 pounds of the large rotor Cobra brakes. Amazingly the Strange Engineering calipers, brackets and rotors are less than 20 pounds! I found a reference for the Aerospace set that said it weighed in at 28 lbs with the 0.81" thick rotor. Further, I suspect the Baer brakes to be heavier than the Wilwood since they have 1.1" thick rotors compared to the 0.81" Wilwood rotors.

I know a couple different racers who have Wilwood brakes on their track cars and they both highly recommended their product. Wilwood was also my choice when considering bigger brakes for the CE.

Next up, piston area and clamping force comparisons.

 

[mlschultz]

Have you checked into Lamb? http://www.lambcomponents.com/conve...1_75_76/lamb-hd-front-disc-brake-system-p-286

 

[driller]

Have you checked into Lamb?

Interesting.

I've got to find a better search engine.

 

[driller]

After much research and comparative calculations, the swap to a Wilwood front brake setup should not require any hydraulic changes and should result in approximately 10% more brake pedal force than the stock brakes or Cobra brakes, all else being equal. Interesting enough, the AeroSpace Components brake setup calculates identical to the Wilwood brakes. The Strange Engineering brakes would require approximately 22% more effort on the brake pedal according to the calculations.

A couple things I learned in the process...

The Mark VIII has a front brake bias of 74.3%.

A floating caliper's effective piston area is twice the calculated area of the piston diameter. The 2.6" diameter piston on the stock Mark VIII brakes equate to 10.62 square inches of effective piston area while the typical 4 piston caliper with a piston diameter of 1.75" yields 9.62 square inches of effective piston area.

 

[BlackIceLSC]

from experience, the Wilwood brakes do not last in a street car application. You will also have to worry about snapping the small allen bolts should you need to do some extreme stripe braking.
ALWAYS have a fresh set of pads IN STOCK (order a spare set)

light weight?
yes

extreme braking power?
not sure, as I've only used them in a drag racing atmosphere on a 3400 lbs BBC-equipped car, where they work for quick speed reduction(dumping at the stripe)

a LOT of brake dust?
YES

 

[driller]

from experience, the Wilwood brakes do not last in a street car application. You will also have to worry about snapping the small allen bolts should you need to do some extreme stripe braking.
ALWAYS have a fresh set of pads IN STOCK (order a spare set)

light weight?
yes

extreme braking power?
not sure, as I've only used them in a drag racing atmosphere on a 3400 lbs BBC-equipped car, where they work for quick speed reduction(dumping at the stripe)

a LOT of brake dust?
YES

Thank you!

Are you speaking of the UltraLite 32 vane (0.81" thick) rotors or the solid steel (0.35") rotors?

There is only a 2.2 pound weight difference between the vane type rotor and the solid steel rotor. I'm not concerned so much with extreme braking as I am with weight but I am hesitant with the thin rotor brakes on a 2 ton drag car.

 

[driller]

Resurrecting this thread...

I recently purchased the Wilwood brake package for the Blue Flame and find they have about a 2 week lead time.

Looking forward to working on the install.

 

[tixer]

ooh. I contemplated adding this thread as a reference to the other recent conversation about brakes, but figured it didn't quite match the goals of that project.

I'm looking forward to your fitment observations. This should be fun.

 

[driller]

Apparently, Summit lied.

I received notice today the package has begun its cross country trek from manufacturer on the left coast and is in transit - due for delivery in four days.

 

[Bangster]

Hopefully they perform as you expect them to. Your braking requirements are significantly different than a daily driver, hard driven weekend car, or even most peoples street and strip requirements. I never would have thought about going in that direction, for the reasons you did. Took me awhile to wrap my head around the requirements that would have you going the route of those offerings. But obviously for my street only car, none of those would likely survive my driving style or environment. I really need to get the Cobra setup under my car. I went with the smaller rotor and Mustang V6/GT PBR dual piston setup, not bad, slightly better than the 11.08 Mark VIII setup, but nothing to write home about on these fairly heavy cars.

I have 3 MN-12/FN-10 cars and each one has a different brake setup, even my 89 Cougar got Mark VIII spindles so I could swap them around at will and try things out or use the old setup from the other cars.

 

[driller]

I was doing some recon on this upcoming project and hit a road block.

The SS braided lines have -3 AN female swivel ends and the kit came with the adapter fittings for each end. The caliper fitting is a 1/8-27 male x -3 AN male and the chassis fitting is a 3/8-24 IF female x -3 AN male. The chassis fitting is not compatible with the Mark VIII brake line (surprise).

So the question is which -3 AN adapter fitting do I need to fit the brake line? It seems all I can find are 7/16-24 IF female or 3/8-24 IF female. Is it metric?

 

[driller]

So the question is which -3 AN adapter fitting do I need to fit the brake line? It seems all I can find are 7/16-24 IF female or 3/8-24 IF female. Is it metric?

I think I answered my own question. :fart

After some google work and some measuring of a brake line I happened to have in the garage, I have determined it is indeed a metric fitting. Specifically it is a 10mm x 1.0 metric tube nut on the 3/16" brake line with a bubble flare.

A quick search on Summit Racing's website led me to a Male -3 AN to Female 10mm x 1.0, Steel, Zinc Plated brake fitting - Earl's Performance Brake Adapter P/N 989534ERL.

 

[driller]

This is the line fitting...



And here's the adapter fitting(s) I'm waiting on...

 

[billcu]

That's a bubble flare on the line.

 

[driller]

That's a bubble flare on the line.

You are correct & I edited my mistake.

For the unintiated, here is a good primer... http://www.fedhillusa.com/?page=flare

 

[driller]

Starting to learn all about wheel alignments...



All I'm concerned about at the present time is the toe alignment, we'll check caster and camber later when there is more time.

 

[billcu]

Yes, I had a hard time finding some bubble flare parts once.