Overheating In January

[driller]

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Ok, I'll buy all that but still someone needs to explain this. The reference to someone said such and such in an article does nothing to explain the cause and effect.

 

[Ford nut]

Variation in timing is the only thing I can find related to stretched chain's/overheating.

It fixed it...hats off to you.

I have a hard time believing the engine ran without sounding real bad if the chains were stretched to that point.

Just the miles on this engine are hard to believe, only a few on this board have been that high, Tommy is one I can think of, I hope you get another 200k

 

[Red Box Rebel]

Not saying that wasn’t the source of the overheat, but it is a very rare occurrence. And kudos’s to you for tackling a timing chain job over a motor swap.

I'm sure you haven’t owned the car for its whole life so it's safe to assume maintenance wasn’t performed when needed. So if someone neglected oil changes to every fifteen thousand miles, it possible to have excessive ware on the chains. The average person doesn’t care about their car after 100,000 miles, it's amazing what frequent oil changes can do.

*Sometimes* a blitz fix is easier than spending allot of time on finding an exact cause. Just like what I did on my Town car,wouldn’t idle right so I changed the engine, thinking the intake had a vacuum leak.

Thank you for the compliment.

I did not purchase the Mark new, but I have owned it since 23,000 miles and when I bought the car, it was still under warranty.

As soon as I bought the car, I changed the oil and put in Mobile 1 5W30 Synthetic. I changed the oil every 5000 miles and never used anything except Mobil 1 sythetic 5W30.

When Mobil came out with the "Extended Performance" synthetic, I started using it and changes were extended to 10,000 miles. I also switched from the Motorcraft oil filter to the mobil filter and then switched again when fram came out with the 15,000 mile filter.

The oil changes and trans fluid changes were done like clock work. The cooling system fluid changes were not done as religiously, but the system was not clogged or rotting out.

When looking inside the engine with the front cover and valve covers off, it was remarkably clean and free from any signs of dirt and/or sludge build up.

Even though the engine was overheating, it did not sound bad, but after replacing the chains, plugs, and coils, the improvement in performance was very noticeable.

The car was not abused, but the chains were certainly out of spec. It really does have over 235,000 miles.

I am representing my friend that helped my with the job in Court tomorrow. If I can keep him out of jail, I will ask him for a link to the article and I will try to post here for everyone to judge for themselves.

 

[steve]

I am representing my friend that helped my with the job in Court tomorrow. If I can keep him out of jail, I will ask him for a link to the article and I will try to post here for everyone to judge for themselves.

well i hope you are as good as lawyer as he is mechanic

 

[driller]

Variation in timing is the only thing I can find related to stretched chain's/overheating.

I agree if the timing was advanced. But how can the ignition timing be advanced when the crank sensor is attached to the crank? Wouldn't the pistons be at the same degree when firing?

I hope this article is posted and provides enough detail rather than just anecdotal evidence.

I'm not a non-believer, I'm just genuinely seeking the explanation in clinical terms.

 

[DLF]

I think that the issue is supposedly cam timing, not ignition timing, but I am a non-believer.

 

[Red Box Rebel]

What is it?

I think that the issue is supposedly cam timing, not ignition timing, but I am a non-believer.

You are free to believe what ever you want, but you have yet to explain why the engine was overheating.

You have made up your mind that the timing chains were not the cause, so tell us what it was?

BTW, My buddie walked today!!!

 

[Mad1stGen]

Something isn't adding up. It almost sounds like the bad (stuck) thermostat was replaced with a motorcraft piece, but installed incorrectly (as in backwards).
Then it might gotten swapped around correctly. I've run into several Marks with 200k miles, and none of them were overheating for no reason.
All of them sounded horrible upon startup though with the tensioners not working correctly. Still no overheating.

I wonder if the catalytic converters were glowing red when the car was supposedly overheating ?

Oh, and it looks like you're starving your engine of oil. That oil filter pictured above is way too small for the HO oil pump on a 4.6 4V.

 

[Roadboss]

The valve timing variation won't produce any temp spikes as you described. FOMOCO uses Variable Valve Timing (VVT) on most of their new motors. In the old days the distributor was driven by the cam shaft. Timing issues were tied to bad distributor gears, and or timing chains. The newer mod motors use a crank sensor for timing so that should not be an issue. I think that Jeremie probably hit it on the nose with a miss installed thermostat. I have been party to puzzles like this in the past and it's suprising
how sometimes the answer is so simple.

 

[BadSax]

BTW, My buddie walked today!!!

hooray

 

[Red Box Rebel]

Stat right side up

Thanks guys, but the thermostat was not installed incorrectly. I wish it had been that simple. Remember, the overheating was happening before the thermostat was replaced and continued after it was properly replaced. And the engine is now not overheating and the thermostat was not removed when the timing chain job was being preformed.

Again, I am hearing speculation and an unwillingness to learn something new.

You can speak of variable valve timing, but this engine did not have variable valve timing. The valve timing is completely determined by four timing chains that are completely mechanical and and tension is adjusted through mechanical adjusters. They move out, but do not move back in. There is no variation in the valve timing based on load, speed and other variables that govern dymamic ignition timing.

So, once the slack is detected, the mechanical tensioner moves out to hold tension on the chain to maintain the correct non-variable valve timing. Once the tensioner has reached its maximum extension/adjustment there can be no additional slack taken up on the two main chains. The timing therefore, will begin to become out of spec as the chain becomes looser and stretched and the tensioner can no longer put enough tension on the chains to keep the valves in time.

The question is: Can incorrect or out of adjustment valve timing cause overheating? Based on this experience, I would have to say yes. Nothing else corrected the problem and now the problem is resolved after the chains were replaced.

So, lets rule out the upside down thermostat and move on the next reason for the overheating, unless you are ready to accept the valve timing as a cause.

Please tell me what it was and why it is no longer causing the problem?

Thank you for your constructive advice and criticism.

 

[LSC HUNTER]

I am a non believer. I see no way that valve timing is going to affect engine temperature to that degree. If that was the case then most of the Marks out there would be over heating based on worn chains and tensioners.

I think that based on what was done and to the degree the engine was disassembled, on reassembly what ever was wrong was corrected finally and now the engine does not overheat. If the valve timing was that far out of spec would not this interference motor been trash from valve contact to piston?

 

[Meister]

I am a non believer. I see no way that valve timing is going to affect engine temperature to that degree. If that was the case then most of the Marks out there would be over heating based on worn chains and tensioners.

I think that based on what was done and to the degree the engine was disassembled, on reassembly what ever was wrong was corrected finally and now the engine does not overheat. If the valve timing was that far out of spec would not this interference motor been trash from valve contact to piston?

I'm thinking along these lines too.

Not just Mark VIII motors, but all the other 4.6 motors out there, DOHC or SOHC. A lot of the SOHC ones roll around in the Crown Vic taxi cabs with 3-400k plus miles on those motors, and they don't overheat...and i'm sure a lot of them have original chains and tensioners.

Obviously you did something in the process that fixed the overheating problem, but I have a hard time grasping that the chain/tensioner problem caused your overheating.

Doug

 

[Roadboss]

VVT as well as warn timing chains has nothing to do with engine operating temperatures!

 

[Roadboss]

Bad gas or signal by knock sensors (causing timing too be too retarded far), and plugged cats would be the only other faults that I could sign up for.

 

[Red Box Rebel]

Bad gas or signal by knock sensors (causing timing too be too retarded far), and plugged cats would be the only other faults that I could sign up for.

Okay, but the cats were not plugged up. What was the cause of the overheating? Same gas was in the tank after performing the timing chain job.

 

[driller]

Bad gas or signal by knock sensors (causing timing too be too retarded far)...

My experience is that advanced ignition timing would cause higher combustion temperatures and possibly overheating.

I know with the switch chip on the '93, the chipped settings ran noticeably higher engine temperatures than stock.

 

[Red Box Rebel]

Okay, we have one vote for retarded ignition timing and one vote for advanced ignition timing, one vote for plugged up cats, and one vote for bad gas.

The cats were not plugged and the gas was not bad.

If the ignition timing was not in spec before replacing the timing chains, how did it fix itself after replacing the timing chains?

What caused the ignition timing to either become retarded or advanced? What made it self correct?

Still have not heard a definitive answer to the question: Why was the engine overheating?

The chains were way out of spec and that is a fact. So, believe what you want and thanks for your input.

 

[Roadboss]

Did you ever disconnect your battery to reset the computor?

 

[driller]

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Okay, we have one vote for retarded ignition timing and one vote for advanced ignition timing, one vote for plugged up cats, and one vote for bad gas.

The cats were not plugged and the gas was not bad.

If the ignition timing was not in spec before replacing the timing chains, how did it fix itself after replacing the timing chains?

What caused the ignition timing to either become retarded or advanced? What made it self correct?

Still have not heard a definitive answer to the question: Why was the engine overheating?

The chains were way out of spec and that is a fact. So, believe what you want and thanks for your input.

Hey! I'm the one with questions! You are the one not giving answers! LOL

You keep saying replacing the chains fixed your overheating problem and I keep asking HOW. Then YOU start calling everyone non-believers while asking us what was the problem. Whenever someone suggests something YOU become a non-believer telling us how it was before and is now after.

If it wasn't for the occasional car tech talk, your thread would belong in the Political forum!

All you have provided as an answer is FAITH.

I'm sorry but only my religion runs on faith.

My cars run on science; chemistry, physics, mathematics, engineering, hypotheses, theories and LAWS...

Not just any magical, mystery timing chain replacement can change that.