Engine issues

driller

El Presidente
So I woke up this morning to a text from the local track which inspired me to work on the Blue Flame so when the chance came along I might get to take it back to the track. With my work schedule and all the rainy weather as of late, I haven't been to the track since spring!

I needed to replace the valve cover gaskets since the last time I checked the plugs I had found most of the COPs wet with oil. :( I had just recently moved the car a couple days ago and noted it needed a wash so I began with the intent of washing it prior to diving in under the hood. I started the car and was sitting in the garage waiting a few moments for it to warm up a bit before backing out when it happened. The car sputtered a bit then started making a horrible thrashing metallic sound. Startled for a moment, I tried to listen to it in an attempt to identify the sound when after a couple seconds it quit making the noise, then the car simply sputtered and then died.

Baffled, I turned off the key and proceeded to investigate. I could find nothing visibly wrong. I even looked underneath and found nothing to have been leaking. Oil & coolant levels both looked fine. The only thing left to do was to try to start it and see what happens. It didn't start right up but did finally start and went into it's normal 'high idle' mode, albeit with what seemed to be a more pronounced cam lope. When the rpms dropped it seemed to be idling very rough. I tried to give it some throttle but it refused to rev. It was almost as if it was out of gas. The other oddity I noticed was the AFR was showing way lean at idle. It usually idled right at 14.7 but was now reading high teens and jumping to over 20. :eek-large:

After less than a minute I shut it down.

After pondering a bit, I presumed the worst and began prepping for a compression test.

IMG_7339.jpg

The results...

Passenger Side front to back:
1-100
2-97
3-100
4-100

Drivers Side front to back:
5-187
6-150
7-167
8-195

Now what? :confused-red:

Cylinders 6 & 7 have been erratic for quite some time but cylinders 1 through 4 previously tested 185 to 195 (same as the 'good' cylinders on the drivers bank). Between the noise incident and the results of the compression test, I'm thinking something went wrong with the cam timing for bank one. :mad-tilt:

I'm going to try a leak down test and see if that reveals anything further.
 

steve

With "LOD" Since 1997
Sounds like when I would wash the engine and no matter how careful water would get in the plug wells.
 

driller

El Presidente
I followed up with a leak down test and the numbers weren't so good. :(

1-60/46
2-60/58
3-60-54
4-60-54
5-60/59
6-60/36
7-60/48
8-60/58

Since I was going to pull the valve covers to reseal them, I decided to pull the passenger side first since we obviously have issues on that bank.

First look was not so bad...

IMG_7340.jpg

But if you look closer you will note something is not right.

Let's take a peek on the other side...

IMG_7341.jpg

IMG_7342.jpg

IMG_7343.jpg

IMG_7344.jpg

This is not turning out good. :embarrassed:
 

driller

El Presidente
It appears the sprocket and secondary timing chain have broken.

IMG_7345.jpg

IMG_7347.jpg

IMG_7348.jpg

IMG_7349.jpg

IMG_7350.jpg

Not sure how much carnage was done.

Looks like it's time for a rebuild! :roll_over:
 

LSCmuscle

New member
After your initial description of the symptoms I instantly thought a timing chain/sprocket. I had an experience fairly close to yours, only I didn't try restarting the vehicle. I had it transported to Jeremi's and when he tore it apart he found similar results to your last few pictures (my engine actually had a few more broken pieces). Thankfully the broken pieces stayed in place rather than circulating through the engine. He used a bore scope to check for any more damage and I was also lucky that not further damage was done... hopefully you get lucky as well and don't have to dig too deep into it. Not sure if you remember, but its in the last couple pages of the "White Lightning Rebirth" thread.

Sorry to hear the news and good luck.
 
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driller

El Presidente
From what I can tell, it appears the secondary gear is all there (albeit in 3 pieces). It also appears the entire secondary chain is all there. So it doesn't look like I have any missing shrapnel.

The other good news is the oil pump works and appears to be oiling the head and cams properly. Further good news is the intake cam is not seized. I can easily rock it back and forth with a socket and ratchet on the cam bolt. The secondary tensioner is still intact and nothing else is loose or missing that I can tell.

I searched but have not located any reason for the failure and a quick google search assures me I am not the first (though I would feel somewhat better if there was a known cause to be found). My next step is to try to use my video borescope to inspect the top of the pistons for any visual indication of valve damage.

I am flabbergasted that it even restarted and idled with passenger side intake cam just sitting there. :eek:
 

driller

El Presidente
Bore scope confirmed the pistons and valves made contact. Hard to tell how much but the marks were unmistakable.
 

SilverMark97

New member
Driller, that totally sucks man, did you get down in it hard lately? I'm not as big of an expert as you but I see an engine pull in the near future, or at the very least a head job. What's your next move? Forged pistons and heads? hehe
 

driller

El Presidente
... did you get down in it hard lately?
The car leads a pampered life, but it is driven hard at the track.

Only thing I can attribute the failure to is the big lift cams. So it looks like I have some shopping to do. I'm thinking billet gears, HD roller chains and adjustable cam sprockets for the timing set.

The head will likely need pulled and the valves and pistons inspected and replaced as needed. If that happens, we'll probably freshen up all the cylinders as well while we're at it to get the compression back in balance.

It would be a perfect time for a new intake manifold as well.
 
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driller

El Presidente
I need to call the shop this week and see how the line is moving. LOL

I've pretty much decided on upgrading to Accufab secondary sprockets, chains and tensioners. I am considering dropping in new cams with slightly less lift. I need to talk to a couple 'experts' first.
 

KStromberg

Vortech kicked in yo
The car leads a pampered life, but it is driven hard at the track.

Only thing I can attribute the failure to is the big lift cams. So it looks like I have some shopping to do. I'm thinking billet gears, HD roller chains and adjustable cam sprockets for the timing set.

The head will likely need pulled and the valves and pistons inspected and replaced as needed. If that happens, we'll probably freshen up all the cylinders as well while we're at it to get the compression back in balance.

It would be a perfect time for a new intake manifold as well.
Welp, since this thread was revived I just have a couple things to add. Nothing technical really as I am no engine building expert but more so what I see and wouldn't mind seeing with the Blue Flame which I still catch myself watching on Youtube back in the 4.6 days because well, I have thought and still think your car is bad to the bone.

1) Keep the big lumpy cams. Upgrade the hardware accordingly as you had mentioned, don't downgrade the cams. Once this thing is dialed in, 12.5 passes should be history. I know it can happen. I'm honestly thinking 11s on motor sometime in the future. The cubes, cams, and compression ratio on this setup seem to point towards those sorts of ETs.

2) I can pull up the link but I'm too lazy. You'll know what I am talking about. The custom sheetmetal highrise Cobra intake. I'm sure you have seen it. Pair that up with a healthy shot of nitrous (250 shot) and the Blue Flame will be a 10 second car.

3)As a result of the nitrous, some pro level shafts would be nice to take the hit out of the hole.


Best of luck with it John. Looking forward to seeing lower ETs in the future.
 

driller

El Presidente
I appreciate your thoughts, Kirk... they mirror my initial plans. Bored, stroked, high compression and high lift cams with a big shot of nitrous once it was tuned and caged. I figured a mid 12 second car any day N/A, low 12s N/A on a good day and 10s on the juice.

My primary reason to downgrade the cams would be for longevity. I really don't want to go through any further two steps forward, three steps back. But on the other hand, I am not one to leave much on the table... LOL. :love-it:

As far as the intake is concerned, I have researched this quite a bit. I have considered the MMR intake, solely because most other options are significantly more money. I happened to be at a large speed shop back in August and the MMR intake came up in our sideline discussions. Yeah, they knew all about it. They had one that was ordered and paid for in April and they were still waiting on it at the end of August. They advised I may want to spend my money elsewhere.

I would have already ordered the intake if I had an idea on how much money it was going to take to repair the damages. It would not be fiscally responsible to do otherwise. Sort of playing the same waiting game on the heads and cams as well. Depending on what the overall damages are will likely determine what changes are made.

So until they get it tore apart for a full and final diagnosis, I am sort of in limbo. Once it is tore down, I fear I will be waiting on parts. :confused-red:

Edit: FYI, the MMR intake supposedly measures just under what the Cobra intake and IMRCs do. It should fit under the stock hood with a bit of k-member spacing. It would fit easy with a Cowl hood.
 
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