SC'd Mark Runs Warm/Hot

[OU812IC]

I have read through this thread in hopes to find a cure but no dice... http://www.lincolnsofdistinction.or...ng-Fan-Mods&highlight=mark's+cooling+fan+mods

Below is the novel with the details...

98 LSC with rebuilt motor standard bore/11.1 CR - rebuilt B heads with comp behive springs and retainers decked .060
Cobra intake with single blade TB - 80lbs Siemens Injectors - Stock fuel pressure regular
Cobra cams degreed with passenger secondary tensioner mod
BR7EF plugs gapped at .028
IMRC - EGR - SAI - Evap all deleted
Northern Dual pass radiator with Dual Spal fans control by the computer - 3000 miles
Coolant cross over delete and head cooling mod(on top freeze plug hole adjacent to the intake) inline 180 stat - factory mechanical pump
Paxton 1500 14.6ish lbs at 7000k NO FMIC.. Meth injection pre and post SC
4.10 gears - 4k Circle D stall - External Derale 38k plate and fin cooler fed with 3/8 AN lines

Engine details:
Manley Forged 11cc dish(?)
Coyote boss rods
stock crank
cylinder honed to 600 grit
Felpro 1141R/L head gaskets ARP 87 series studs - NOT 2000 - 70 FTLBS in three stages per ARP
New FRPP Main bolts
Clevite Performance series bearings.. 1.2-.25 clearance on mains and rods
Windage tray with stock pan
GT500 oil pump with stock Mark tube
Broke in with 5w30 conventional oil - have since changed to full synthetic... all with motorcraft filters...

Motor runs quiet and smooth with no smoke and no fluid consumption.

Before I popped the motor I could beat the hell out of it in 90 plus weather with the AC on, of course, and hit 208 for a few seconds and drop to the low 190s. Cruising in same weather low 190s. Could idle all day with the AC on in the mid to upper 190s.

New motor... 10 minute data log run to dial in shifting-MAF-Timing and so on it is fine. Once you want to extend the drive time it is nothing to hit 210-220 at cruise with the AC on. Stop and open the hood and turn the AC off it will drop to low 190 mid to mid 180s. Hit 240 once and blew a little coolant out but nothing serious, temp dropped to low 220s in about 10 seconds, this occurred on the decell from a 120 MPH pull. All driving is on the street, NO DYNO!!

New build put in used electric water pump, took out and put old pump back in. Taken the stat out completely(Previously a 180 with one hole drilled in at the 12 O'clock position), put in a 160 with holes drilled in it, a new 180 without holes. Pulled hood liner, pulled wiper cowl and rubber insulator gasket between cowl and hood. Drained, refilled, burped more time than i can count. I know many have said this before but there is no air in the system. On a good long hard heat soak it can drop from 220 to upper 180s in under 5 minutes with the hood open and AC... this all happens in upper 70's and mid to lower 80's ambient.

40-50 degree temp drop from inlet to outlet of the radiator.
Fans pull air like a MOFO!!

HELP!!

 

[mag]

With the dual pass radiator and the head cooling system mod you may not be moving the coolant fast enough thru the system .I would try upgrading your water pump and a 170 t-stat probably wouldn't hurt.

 

[driller]

Just a thought from the wild side...

How much timing are you running?

It may be worth consideration to pull out as much as 4 degrees of timing globally and see how the engine temps respond.

I've seen excessive timing advance cause overheating back in the day of pushrods... irrelevant, I know, but I have also seen the effects of timing on coolant temperatures in the mod motor (albeit naturally aspirated). Simply put, more timing for more power equals more heat. You could have very well been comfortably below the heat capacity of the cooling system and now could be creating significantly more heat than the capacity of the cooling system allows.

Case in point... years ago I ran a switch chip on the stock motor in the Blue Flame where besides the stock tune, I had 3 progressively 'hotter' tunes, the 3rd one for 'track use only'. I could NOT run the track tune on the street without an overheating tendency, almost irregardless of ambient temperatures. More than a couple times, I would inadvertently leave the track forgetting to switch the chip to a more street friendly tune and it would not take very long at all to be reminded of my mistake.

Like I said, just a thought.

 

[OU812IC]

"...exceeded quota for images by 17kb ..." I wanted to post my Borderline Spark Table.
I did dump all of the timing below boost back to "factory specs" with the same thought John. At cruise speeds maybe i am asking too much.. LOL.
Even if i drive like a nice "person" and stay out of boost she builds the heat.
I went for a 30 minute drive this evening pulling all the timing out below boost load level. it still hit 215... 65 degrees ambient. Honestly I thought that was going to take care of it.

 

[OU812IC]

With the dual pass radiator and the head cooling system mod you may not be moving the coolant fast enough thru the system .I would try upgrading your water pump and a 170 t-stat probably wouldn't hurt.

Had a 160 stat in it as a trial.. didnt make a difference.

I had an electric pump in for a while that pumped some serious water. If you look real hard at the one pic you can see a flush T by the alternator. Hooked a hose to it and ran to the degass bottle. It looked like you turned the garden hose on. Holy crap the water flow, easily wash the leaves out of the gutters. I pulled the electric out thinking that is was failing later on in drive time.

 

[mag]

MODS can be a pain perhaps you need to find the correct flow rate too fast too slow? Also water cools better than antifreeze maybe try a 70/30 mix .

 

[driller]

"...exceeded quota for images by 17kb ..." I wanted to post my Borderline Spark Table.
I did dump all of the timing below boost back to "factory specs" with the same thought John. At cruise speeds maybe i am asking too much.. LOL.
Even if i drive like a nice "person" and stay out of boost she builds the heat.
I went for a 30 minute drive this evening pulling all the timing out below boost load level. it still hit 215... 65 degrees ambient. Honestly I thought that was going to take care of it.

Not sure what to think, but running 215 with 65 degree ambient without boost, the cooling system is obviously not cooling.



On your crossover delete system, where is the bypass plumbed to/from? I'm left wondering if perhaps you have a 'short circuit' in the cooling system? I know you said it's the same as what it was previously but I'm grasping for straws.

What you describe is what typically happens when the stock system is run with a 2V t-stat and the bypass is never closed when the thermostat opens. The proper 4V t-stat allows "bypass" coolant flow until the t-stat opens and then chokes off the bypass forcing the coolant through the block. If you look at the schematic above, number 18 is the bypass hose. With the t-stat closed, the bypass is open and coolant simply circles through the radiator. When the t-stat opens, the bypass closes and coolant then exits through the oil cooler into the block which then exits through the crossover into the radiator.

 

[OU812IC]

Not sure what to think, but running 215 with 65 degree ambient without boost, the cooling system is obviously not cooling.

View attachment 14617

On your crossover delete system, where is the bypass plumbed to/from? I'm left wondering if perhaps you have a 'short circuit' in the cooling system? I know you said it's the same as what it was previously but I'm grasping for straws.

What you describe is what typically happens when the stock system is run with a 2V t-stat and the bypass is never closed when the thermostat opens. The proper 4V t-stat allows "bypass" coolant flow until the t-stat opens and then chokes off the bypass forcing the coolant through the block. If you look at the schematic above, number 18 is the bypass hose. With the t-stat closed, the bypass is open and coolant simply circles through the radiator. When the t-stat opens, the bypass closes and coolant then exits through the oil cooler into the block which then exits through the crossover into the radiator.

The head cooling mod fitting/hose re-enters after the inline thermostat and goes into the radiator.
Using the lower hose from a GT mustang. I still have the "bleed hose" from the top of the radiator going back to the bottle. It comes off of the top of the passenger side radiator tank.

I have suspicion that with the higher compression yields a bit more engine heat production. I cant believe that it is that much more...? Open the hood and let the hot air out and the temps drop rather quickly. At the same time there is a 40-50 temp drop from the inlet to the outlet of the radiator. 210-215 in 165-170 out..
Trans temps stay pretty cool at highway speed after a 30 minute ride. Stop and go through town the trans comes up a bit, 180-185 compared to 165-170 on the highway.

Do I need to cut a hole in the hood? It cant be that bad, there a plenty of marks with blowers that dont have a cowl hood and have a stock radiator and fan.

 

[driller]

The head cooling mod fitting/hose re-enters after the inline thermostat and goes into the radiator.

Temporarily block or pinch off the bypass hose and see how the temps react?

 

[chris2523]

Do I need to cut a hole in the hood? It cant be that bad, there a plenty of marks with blowers that dont have a cowl hood and have a stock radiator and fan.

as i recall, Mike Schultz had quite an adventure getting The Mark to run cool reliably. the Cobra bumper and few other under hood upgrades helped to control it.

 

[mlschultz]

To compare, today, I was in stop and go city driving up to 45mph (overdrive begins at 45) with a/c on, upper 80's - low 90's ambient, The Mark was anywhere between 200 - 217. 3800 stall 3 disc tc.

I was either going up or down a hill. I have the 2 push and 1 pull cooling fans set to run max speed at 174 in the tune, and I use a Reische 170 t-stat with 75% distilled water & 25% coolant/purple ice, Cobra mechanical water pump.

IAT made it to 110 at one point in traffic today. I have air to air aftercooler.

Without a/c on, it will be from 174 up to 200 depending on engine load for a day like today.

On my wish list - custom fan shroud & discreet hood vents. After that, I don't think there is anything else I can do to help dissipate the heat.

 

[OU812IC]

Was hoping you would chime in.
I am at that point... can't get enough heat out of the engine compartment.... I think?
Can't believe that everything is the same and as soon as I went with a rebuilt motor with a bit higher compression it has pushed me over the top.
I think the heat soak is what is killing me..???

 

[mag]

Are you running headers if so ceramic coating may help.

 

[OU812IC]

03/4 cobra manifolds

 

[mag]

"...exceeded quota for images by 17kb ..." I wanted to post my Borderline Spark Table.
I did dump all of the timing below boost back to "factory specs" with the same thought John. At cruise speeds maybe i am asking too much.. LOL.
Even if i drive like a nice "person" and stay out of boost she builds the heat.
I went for a 30 minute drive this evening pulling all the timing out below boost load level. it still hit 215... 65 degrees ambient. Honestly I thought that was going to take care of it.

I found some info where supercharged 4.6 DOHC retarded the ignition timing 1.5 degrees per 7 pounds of boost .I just googled supercharged 4.6 DOHC ignition timing.

 

[Jamesvinar]

One thing that i remember doing on an older car is ramming a piece of pvc pipe through the headlights so that more colder air can feed into it.

Now im not saying mess up a set of perfectly good headlights but i think you could experiment the airflow by taking out a headlight housing

 

[driller]

Ha, I guess I never thought about my own temperature experiences with a supercharged Mark VIII until I read through the entire thread again and got to Mike's post.

Of course I don't have a centrifugal blower but I do have the little Eaton blower with a Terminator motor in the CE. Typically it is not a problem, but on the two previous Power Tours through the midwest in the hottest part of June it did become a concern. Here are two excerpts from the thread on the 2016 tour...

We made a quick pit stop and purchased a bluetooth OBD2 monitor to keep a close eye on the engine temperatures. The engine temperatures held steady between 215* and 220* throughout the drive.

What had been normally 215*-220* was now pushing 230*-235* in the traffic backup.

I do recall this past year running in traffic would "build heat"... on the open road there seemed to be enough airflow to maintain temperatures to a more comfortable range but still seldom below 200 degrees. The OBD2 monitor I was using this time would start beeping a warning at 230 degrees and I noted at that point the stock temperature gauge would barely be above normal - it was ever so slightly just beginning to move when the OBD2 monitor would start sounding off.

I even tried some Royal Purple Ice coolant additive but honestly didn't note any significant difference. But to be fair, the following day was overcast with occasional rain and the subsequent days, while still 'hot' by my standards, was not near the oppressive heat earlier on the trip or the previous year. Even still, the typical temps were 210-215 degrees in the heat of the day and would predictably climb from there in traffic.

None of this probably helps but at least perhaps puts it in perspective. :wink:

 

[OU812IC]

I raised the back of the hood with 1" washers and pulled the cowl/hood gasket. Drive for over an hour and data logged the whole time breaking into a couple of groups. Ambient was 73-75. Drive in a variety of conditions, freeway, highway, city stop and go, with and without AC. Made a couple of pulls into boost a tad but drive conservatively for the most part.
Jump to the end for ya.. little to no measurable difference. Tomorrow after work I am draining the cooling system and back flushing with a hose. Expecting to see shop rags or little bodies and nest run out. If not... it is going to become target practice, pig roaster, up for parts then a planter of some type.
Stay tuned for tomorrow's update.

 

[mlschultz]

Ha, I guess I never thought about my own temperature experiences with a supercharged Mark VIII until I read through the entire thread again and got to Mike's post.

Of course I don't have a centrifugal blower but I do have the little Eaton blower with a Terminator motor in the CE. Typically it is not a problem, but on the two previous Power Tours through the midwest in the hottest part of June it did become a concern. Here are two excerpts from the thread on the 2016 tour...





I do recall this past year running in traffic would "build heat"... on the open road there seemed to be enough airflow to maintain temperatures to a more comfortable range but still seldom below 200 degrees. The OBD2 monitor I was using this time would start beeping a warning at 230 degrees and I noted at that point the stock temperature gauge would barely be above normal - it was ever so slightly just beginning to move when the OBD2 monitor would start sounding off.

I even tried some Royal Purple Ice coolant additive but honestly didn't note any significant difference. But to be fair, the following day was overcast with occasional rain and the subsequent days, while still 'hot' by my standards, was not near the oppressive heat earlier on the trip or the previous year. Even still, the typical temps were 210-215 degrees in the heat of the day and would predictably climb from there in traffic.

None of this probably helps but at least perhaps puts it in perspective. :wink:

Yep, that factory gauge starts to move at 230, and at that point, in the blink of an eye, you better be pulling off the road and going from a/c to full heat. At least in The Mark anyway, the threshold is 235 and then you see drama under the hood... Ambient needs to be upper 90's low 100's for The Mark to get into the 230's with a/c on the way it sits now.

Was hoping you would chime in.
I am at that point... can't get enough heat out of the engine compartment.... I think?
Can't believe that everything is the same and as soon as I went with a rebuilt motor with a bit higher compression it has pushed me over the top.
I think the heat soak is what is killing me..???

I did not see you post your IAT's anywhere. I am probably not telling you anything new, but for the readers that are not familiar with our struggles, if your feeding the engine 100+ intake air temps into the engine, even with 70 ambient air, the engine will run hotter. High compression is actually more efficient turning heat into power, but you must do your best to feed it cool intake air, water, and fuel.

My cooling fans are barely doing their job, but I know I need to do a better job of exhausting all that air I am cramming into that engine compartment that has no place to go. My dream is to have IAT's no more than 10 degrees higher than ambient under all conditions.

I raised the back of the hood with 1" washers and pulled the cowl/hood gasket. Drive for over an hour and data logged the whole time breaking into a couple of groups. Ambient was 73-75. Drive in a variety of conditions, freeway, highway, city stop and go, with and without AC. Made a couple of pulls into boost a tad but drive conservatively for the most part.
Jump to the end for ya.. little to no measurable difference. Tomorrow after work I am draining the cooling system and back flushing with a hose. Expecting to see shop rags or little bodies and nest run out. If not... it is going to become target practice, pig roaster, up for parts then a planter of some type.
Stay tuned for tomorrow's update.

Good Luck!

 

[OU812IC]

My IATs are higher due to no cooler. I run meth injection. Typically pull 30-50 degrees out of the air charge. It is not uncommon to hit 150-170 IATs in stop and go city traffic when fully heat soaked. At cruise ... about 10-15 over ambient once it has stabilized.