46callaway
Registered
Yes, you have to load the stock tune on your computer before you can make modified tunes. Unforunately, I can not see what is going on between the scenes with the stock tune, only Delta Forces can do that.
help with tuning my car
- Thread starter 46callaway
- Start date
sdund1sputed
Registered
and im lost i have no idea about leaning out or rich fuel mixture ?
46callaway
Registered
Do you have tuning software or are you just wondering in general? Stock the Mark VIII A/F ratio is pig rich at WOT and there is a lot of power to be made by leaning it out.
Those were my exact words in Nov of 2006.
Calibrating PCMs might not be "for everyone".
Of course you have the ability to do great things with these tuning software packages, like
leaning out the additional fuel, to create more power.
quicking and firming up the shifts to lower your ET's
lowering the cooling fan temps to create more power.
With all these positives... there is always a negative.
now you also have the ability to MELT PISTONS by leaning out fuel
by lowering the cooling fan temps you now have the ability to MELT your cooling fan motor if you run "too cool" off a fan temp, thus causing the fan to run ALL THE TIME.
And.. a novice tooner might also find that he has "tuned the tranny" right out of the car!
{which I believe I did with my first chip burn} HAHA
But considering the tranny was an unmodifid 95 box, with 360,000 miles..
I think it's day was "chosen" before I ever changed any 1's and 0's.
Was a startling "coincedence" though, spent two days writing a tune...
burned it to the chip.. and on the FIRST WOT 1-2 shift...
BAM I smoked the One way Clutch!
HAHA
Just wanted to add this to the thread, while these tuning packages are GREAT, you have to be very careful with "what you tell the PCM to DO".
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Actually you didn't get raped. Us dealers don't make anything selling these packages and SCT doesn't provide any incentives. Your dealer just made a slight profit for his efforts. The EEC IV chip version is the most expensive package because you have to purchase the chip burner and chip. There's a MAP policy that the dealers have to follow, Minimum Allowed Pricing). The dealer purchases each component separately from SCT along with the Advantage software and a single data base for the customer's vehicle then puts it all together for you. If he charges the MAP such as I do in order to keep competitive the cheapest you would be able to purchase that package would be $955. The retail price is $1200 so that's a far cry for what you paid for. That retail price is the recommend price that we sell this package so that it's worth it for us dealers to sell them. Most dealers don't or won't offer the PRPs because they are a PITA to deal with and we don't make anything on them.
Now in the past before the 3.0 version came out the dealers were also required to supply the customer with a custom program to get them started. This was a real hard spot with the dealers since we would have to give away our custom programming that would then be shared with other PRP people. With the 3.0 we no longer have to do that since you are provided with a set of value files for your application to use in building your own program. Or the dealer can put together a program for you using those value files and not supply his custom programming.
Problem with this though is there's not much for the Mark VIII. I think they only offer a couple value files besides common fuel injectors and MAFs, maybe a Trans file too, not sure. So if you had a blown Mark you are pretty much on your own unless you can find a dealer willing to give up one of his custom programs and if he does he will charge you for it. Or you may be able to get something from SCT directly.
Then the other side of this that dealers don't like is when they do sell a PRP the customer thinks he's also purchasing a life time tutor that is required to teach him how to tune. The PRP is a DIY and that's what a lot of people don't realize. You can purchase a handbook that gets you started and then there's the SCT forum, but from there you are pretty much on your own. So yes the learning curve is pretty steep.
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
LOL.... Now you are getting the picture and why I only offer 1 program with my chips or programmers. The additional programs is when you make your money. But most people only purchase single programs.
Lonnie, I wish I had followed my own advice that I have given to many.
Get this from YOU, or from Torrie.
I DID get raped.
For 1097 dollars I got software (2.9) and a blank chip and a chip burner.
My 2.9 came directly from SCT.... order was placed by my dealer who was totally clueless in how to export a tune file from their 3.0 version.
So he made the difference between the 995.00 and 1097.00 for "making a phone call".. that's an EXPENSIVE phone call IMHO.
not to mention it took him 6 weeks to "call in the order".
I really screw'd myself by going with a "local SCT dealer" when I knew that I should be getting this from one of 2 people.. YOU and or Torrie.
Then when my PRP arrived, I got a "stock tune" file, and that was it.
Many subsequent calls to my dealer, and many calls to SCT only proved that "my dealer" didn't know how to "export a value file".
I even offered to go down to their shop and export the file "myself", they declined because they said "quote, we need to figure this out on our own".
SO.. I had to wait.. and wait, while they "floundered"
I went back and forth from 11-06 until 03-07 before I finally got SCT to send me a "canned tune file" for a mark 8 with 410's..4 months to get the tune, 6 weeks to get the software..
I dont have a mark 8 w/410's I have a mark 8 w/373's.. but.. ALAS I had something in my hand that I could "compare" to the base file and see "who what when and where" and that "DID" go along way in getting me to where I am now.
I didn't expect ANYONE to teach me to tune, I didn't expect anyone to "GIVE" me their propriatary information, I only wanted what I had paid for..
I'm sorry but it doesnt take 5.5 months to make a tune for a nearly stock N/A mark 8..
Hell... I put my OWN tune file together in about 2 months, and I had no idea what I was doing when I first started.
SCT support was no help, one of their techs had me make changes to my "torque tables"... which really screw'ed things up in the driveability dept.
It took me about a MONTH to overcome that litttle bit of BAD INFORMATION.
I'll hand it to you "calibration guru's", from my own personal experience...
You couldn't PAY me to tune someone elses car..atleast not an amount that would make it "worth my while", that's for sure.
There are too many areas that are "subjective to opinion", such as "when is the best time to lock the convertor".. and what is the best "shift schedule".. and so on.. .and so forth.
now, HAD I gotten the software and a decent starting point tune from my dealer.. I wouldn't feel I was "raped" so...
To date.. the dealer hasn't provided me with ANYTHING other than endless copies of the stock base file that is included with the software...{shakes head}
I've written them off, and look at this as a learning experience..and FWIW, I've had a great time poking around in the bowels of my PCM.
Thanks for your insight Lonnie, it does help to see it from the "other side of the fence".
I can plainly see where all this could turn into a severe PITA.
not to mention the expense you dealers have to "put out" to get into position to calibrate many vehicles..
SCT has it pretty locked down to where "THEY" are the ones making all the money, and the dealers have to deal with the customers, many of which have NO BUSINESS inside a PCM..haha {myself included} haha
When my 2.9 was delivered, I got PRP forum access and was completely shocked and PISSED OFF that within DAYS.. 3.0 was going to be released.
Had I had that access, I wouldn't have waited 5.5 months to get 2.9 I would have waited those few more days and just got 3.0 from the get go.
Within two months of having 2.9 I paid the 100.00 and upgraded to 3.0.
and like you said.. there is little or NIL for the mark 8's in the value files area.
BUT.. I did hicjack some stuff from the other dohc 4.6 value files and applied them to mine..
Loading the value files into a base tune and comparing to a stock tune went ALOOOONG way in answering many of my "unanswerable" questions.
ALL in ALL it's been a very strange trip....but a very enjoyable trip none the less.
I like to be "challenged mentally", and this package did exactly that...it was challenging, and informative once you got past the nearly verticle learning curve.
I only wish Jerry was still running around on the SCT forums, as I really cant afford to join up on "Danners board" as much as I would LOVE to, I just cant afford it... not saying it's "not worth it".. by anymeans.
Thanks for your insight Lonnie, I really appreciate it.
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Then yes you didn't get what you paid for and that should have been reported to SCT. As most know I was there before SCT with Jerry and have been with SCT since the beginning. In the beginning the dealers were scrutinized to weed out the rift raft and keep this sort of thing from happening. Only curtain dealers were allowed to sell the PRP because they needed to be able to support the customer. SCT grew much faster than anyone could imagine and management had to change in order to grow along with the company. Things of course become corporatized and they loose the picture they had when they were the little guy. Stuff falls through the cracks and or gets over looked.
Your dealer didn't know how to support his customer like I said above. He probably wasn't familiar with Mark 8s either so he didn't know where to start to tune one of these. Or he didn't have the tuner package that included the Mark 8s so he was unable to support you. There are several packages for each year and each model. You can purchase just the Mustangs for the older years and then for the new ones. The same goes for the Trucks and other cars. The diesels are another separate package. So it gets real expensive to be able to cover all the vehicles. Most that just start out will only get the Mustang package at first. Then once they become familiar with the software and make some money they purchase packages as they need them. A lot of people think that just because you became an SCT dealer that you can tune any vehicle because you have the basic software. As I just pointed out, you have to buy each vehicle model's data base first. Then just because you have the software still doesn't mean you can tune. The software is only as good as the person using it. And on top of that you have 4 levels of users, basic, standard, professional and calibrator. You have to go to the training to move up on these levels. Most won't pay for the training so they never make it to the calibrator level. If they don't get that one then they can't tune the newer drive by wire cars.
Now a lot of the dealers are in it for a fast buck also. These are the Internet whole salers that you see in all the mags also besides ebay. They buy all the packages they can afford or the most popular ones, Mustangs and Trucks. They then just take the provided SCT value files and apply them to the ordered EEC code making a standard "canned tune" and provide up to 3 different programs in the device. Now anyone at SCT or real SCT tuner will tell you that those value files are just to get you started. They are not complete but will work as stand alone files. So they are in no way custom even though they will claim to be. They then sell the programmers at the MAP instead of the MSRP. So this devalues the programs that us real tuners custom build. So this is why the real tuners get frustrated when someone calls trying to get them to price match the Internet WS prices for 3 programs. When you try and explain this to them and explain that your programming isn't an off the shelf canned tune they won't hear it. They don't care that you have put years of R & R behind your programs and that you are paying for that and the customer service that you won't get from that other dealer.
There are only 2 value files for the Mark 8s and they cover both Gen 1 and 2. One is for stock to 3.73s and the other is for 4.10s, both for 91 octane. So even though they are based off of Jerry's initial programs during the evolution of SCT the programmers that took the original 0s and 1s and converted them to the SCT stuff you now see doesn't always come out the exact same. And like I said they are to get you started. The new 3.0 doesn't even have the Mark 8. So what a lot of tuners try and do is load the Marauder file in it, that doesn't work.
You wouldn't believe how many do expect this. I get emails with 4 or 5 data logs and tunes a few times a week with PRP guys wanting me to evaluate them and make corrections to their programs.
I'm not surprised at all about that. Since they only have the 3.2 and what ever the latest build is current. SCT does have some good techs there but it's hard to keep them. Most are young kids and they don't stick around long. So the learning curve for them is really fast when they do get there. Most will not have any experience with something like the Mark 8 and have never even seen a value file for it. Most won't even know what it is or that it has a DOHC. I get a lot of customers sent to me for the Marks, CVs and Tbirds since they are older vehicles that these guys don't get trained up on as much as the newer vehicles. I also get a lot of other tuners wanting me to help them tune one of these vehicles. Most tuners don't know anything about how to tune an automatic Trans because they are Mustang tuners. So that alone really throws them off besides they try and treat a Mark like a Marauder or Cobra and that doesn't work. Just like they try and treat a CV or Tbird like a Mustang, that doesn't work either. The value files are mostly based on engine and transmission for a Mustang when it comes to cars. Like I said they are just to get you started when you are first learning.
I'll hand it to you "calibration guru's", from my own personal experience...
You couldn't PAY me to tune someone elses car..atleast not an amount that would make it "worth my while", that's for sure.
There are too many areas that are "subjective to opinion", such as "when is the best time to lock the convertor".. and what is the best "shift schedule".. and so on.. .and so forth.Don't forget the ones that want to tell you exactly how to tune, they want the a/f at such and such an rpm at this ratio and so on, they want the 1 - 2 shift at this mph and the so on. So you give them what they asked for and they call you back yelling that you don't know what you are doing when you tried to tell that it wasn't going to work their way in the first place. I've been told I'm too nice and let people get away with that too much when I should tell them they are idiots and they either do it right or not at all. But I'm a business and so I can't say that.....oops I just did
no problem
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Yes they do need to work on how they release new products. They know it and are working on it.
He for one thing is too busy to mess with the forums. The other is the BS level got pretty high when he finally said enough was enough. I know exactly what he means too. I've gotten caught up in some that it's more damaging than good even when you are in the right.
You have to either be invited to that site or apply and then it's voted on. This is to keep the rift raft and trouble makers out.
46callaway
Registered
Well my thread has gone completely off topic, can you guys give me your opinion on what a good A/F ratio is at WOT for a 91 octane tune on a 98 Mark VIII?
Sorry to highjack your thread sir.. I get carried away "most of the time".HAHA
As for your question, try 12.8 but as I said before..
"commanded AF" means nothing until you verify your "getting what you asked for" by datalogging.
Just because the PCM is ordering 12.8 doesnt mean the fuel system and ignition are "delivering" 12.8..
it's kinda like ordering extra cheese at taco bell.. your never really quite sure if you have "extra" or not..unless you check
sorry, bad analogy..haha
12.8 will go alot further than the stock 10.6 or whatever that value was on the first page.
As for your question, try 12.8 but as I said before..
"commanded AF" means nothing until you verify your "getting what you asked for" by datalogging.
Just because the PCM is ordering 12.8 doesnt mean the fuel system and ignition are "delivering" 12.8..
it's kinda like ordering extra cheese at taco bell.. your never really quite sure if you have "extra" or not..unless you check
sorry, bad analogy..haha
12.8 will go alot further than the stock 10.6 or whatever that value was on the first page.
Hey Lonnie, I agree with 100% of what you said previously.
I did report the dealer to SCT, well.. not so much "report" them, but I had to go into explicit detail over the phone, about 15 times with various people at SCT before they stopped trying to "help the dealer, help me" and sent me a file.
Andy and Ryan did a great job picking up the ball and running with it.
The dealer did have the Mark 8 database because he did successfully send me the "stock pcm file" about 6 times.. HAHA
(after thinking about it)
He probably "didn't" have my DZA1 processor code when I orignally inquired, which is why I paid almost to the DIME $100.00 more than the $995.00 price.
What happened was, I bought ME PRP and bought HIM his additional database for his 3.0
While tuning cars is very indepth, the sct software is fairly intuitive and really isn't "rocket science".
I mean it's typical windows stuff...
the dealer I had couldn't grasp "file", "select all values", export..????
That's is pretty basic computer operation stuff there.
FWIW and for conversations sake..
my 3.0 does have a Mark 8 folder in the values area, and contains 1 file for a 4.10 car. I guess SCT "dumped that folder and file into my dongle" or whatever..
I still chuckle when I say "my dongle".
I did report the dealer to SCT, well.. not so much "report" them, but I had to go into explicit detail over the phone, about 15 times with various people at SCT before they stopped trying to "help the dealer, help me" and sent me a file.
Andy and Ryan did a great job picking up the ball and running with it.
The dealer did have the Mark 8 database because he did successfully send me the "stock pcm file" about 6 times.. HAHA
(after thinking about it)
He probably "didn't" have my DZA1 processor code when I orignally inquired, which is why I paid almost to the DIME $100.00 more than the $995.00 price.
What happened was, I bought ME PRP and bought HIM his additional database for his 3.0
While tuning cars is very indepth, the sct software is fairly intuitive and really isn't "rocket science".
I mean it's typical windows stuff...
the dealer I had couldn't grasp "file", "select all values", export..????
That's is pretty basic computer operation stuff there.
FWIW and for conversations sake..
my 3.0 does have a Mark 8 folder in the values area, and contains 1 file for a 4.10 car. I guess SCT "dumped that folder and file into my dongle" or whatever..
I still chuckle when I say "my dongle".
I have noticed on the SCT forum there are alot of people having problems with the devices they have gotten from that place RPMOutletmallplacething.
You are too nice to people Lonnie...
I've seen you bend over backwards when you probably should have been "flipping the bird".
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Sorry about that 46callaway 12.5 - 12.8 but like it's already been said just because you command it, it doesn't mean that's where it will be after all the calculations are done.
RPM Outlet is one of the worst. We have a real hard spot with them constantly violating the MAP policy, yet SCT keeps letting them stay a dealer. These types of companies make them a lot of money so they aren't going to cut their own throats. I'll probably get in trouble now for saying that. That company has provided me with a few customers because they only provide canned tunes. The stock program with a value file applied. And in most cases the car has some bolt on performance parts and that file won't work. Or they have a Tbird, CV or something like this and apply the value file to the stock program. There is no value file for just the Tbird, CV or something else. For the 4.6 SOHCs there's only non PI and PI with the different octane levels and these are based on the Mustang. These other cars may have the same drive train but their calibrations are not the same and they don't run the same. So treating them like a Mustang just gets you into trouble. Just like say an Explorer with a 4.6, there's no value file for this. SCT will tell you to apply the Mustang file and start from there. Now they did take and make a set for the Tbird and CV/TC but all they did was back down the octane rating. In other words if you wanted a 91 octane for a CV you would take and apply a Regular fuel Mustang value file. Dealers didn't understand this so they made it easy for them by building a set of files by doing as I just said for them. But, like I keep saying these are for beginners to have a starting point, they still have to be tuned and that's what RPM is not doing. They sell in very large volumes and when an order comes in they take the stock file and apply the value file they think they need and then ship it out. There's no custom tuning like you get from the real custom tuners. So when the Tbird, Mark, CV guy that wanted to save a buck finds out his vehicle won't run correctly or at all and gets the typical brush off from them, he then has to suck it up and come to me or one of the other custom tuners. Then he complains and tries to get me to fix his program for nothing. Which I can't, we can't open programs in a handheld device or chip so we have to build a new one from scratch. I inform him that this is a business and not a charity, he made the choice. I get a lot of price matchers, they call and want me to match the price of RPM or another company and give them 3 custom programs for the same price. I don't think so..... I explain the whole story and they then go with RPM because they get more programs and for a cheaper price than my single program. They then call back when they find out that being cheap they got what they paid for. I also get a lot of people that confused me with Blue Oval Performance and Blue Oval Industries of which I consider copy cats. I've been around longer than them yet they don't have any problem pretending to be me on the phone and taking orders for a Blue Oval Chip program. They've hung up on me when I've called them on this. So I've got a pissed off customer that is flaming me on the Internet saying he's got a Blue Oval Chip that doesn't work. I then have to go defend my name. When I finally figure out what happened the guy is even more pissed or they think that we are a chain and wants me to fix his programming. We call these companies Internet whores vice whole salers.
RPM Outlet is one of the worst. We have a real hard spot with them constantly violating the MAP policy, yet SCT keeps letting them stay a dealer. These types of companies make them a lot of money so they aren't going to cut their own throats. I'll probably get in trouble now for saying that. That company has provided me with a few customers because they only provide canned tunes. The stock program with a value file applied. And in most cases the car has some bolt on performance parts and that file won't work. Or they have a Tbird, CV or something like this and apply the value file to the stock program. There is no value file for just the Tbird, CV or something else. For the 4.6 SOHCs there's only non PI and PI with the different octane levels and these are based on the Mustang. These other cars may have the same drive train but their calibrations are not the same and they don't run the same. So treating them like a Mustang just gets you into trouble. Just like say an Explorer with a 4.6, there's no value file for this. SCT will tell you to apply the Mustang file and start from there. Now they did take and make a set for the Tbird and CV/TC but all they did was back down the octane rating. In other words if you wanted a 91 octane for a CV you would take and apply a Regular fuel Mustang value file. Dealers didn't understand this so they made it easy for them by building a set of files by doing as I just said for them. But, like I keep saying these are for beginners to have a starting point, they still have to be tuned and that's what RPM is not doing. They sell in very large volumes and when an order comes in they take the stock file and apply the value file they think they need and then ship it out. There's no custom tuning like you get from the real custom tuners. So when the Tbird, Mark, CV guy that wanted to save a buck finds out his vehicle won't run correctly or at all and gets the typical brush off from them, he then has to suck it up and come to me or one of the other custom tuners. Then he complains and tries to get me to fix his program for nothing. Which I can't, we can't open programs in a handheld device or chip so we have to build a new one from scratch. I inform him that this is a business and not a charity, he made the choice. I get a lot of price matchers, they call and want me to match the price of RPM or another company and give them 3 custom programs for the same price. I don't think so..... I explain the whole story and they then go with RPM because they get more programs and for a cheaper price than my single program. They then call back when they find out that being cheap they got what they paid for. I also get a lot of people that confused me with Blue Oval Performance and Blue Oval Industries of which I consider copy cats. I've been around longer than them yet they don't have any problem pretending to be me on the phone and taking orders for a Blue Oval Chip program. They've hung up on me when I've called them on this. So I've got a pissed off customer that is flaming me on the Internet saying he's got a Blue Oval Chip that doesn't work. I then have to go defend my name. When I finally figure out what happened the guy is even more pissed or they think that we are a chain and wants me to fix his programming. We call these companies Internet whores vice whole salers.
RPM was one of the ones I see pop up over on the sct board allot, customers being very displeased.. I see it over and over.
I know for a fact I could/would have gotten a solid tune from you, no doubt.
But I really didn't want to bother you with the "back and forth" mail order stuff.
I made a bad choice, from the get go....without a doubt.
BUT.. I have to say I do value my tune file now much more than if I would have just been "handed" a tune file.
It forced me to learn, and apply what I learned into a real world scenario.
I'm quite happy with my performance tune at this point, HP is up as I made my first 80 MPH 1/8th mile and 100.99MPH in the 1/4 pass.
ET is still lacking a bit, due to me losing some time in my 60' probably due to my tires that are on their last leg...
but MPH is way up acrossed the board (+2 in the 1/8th and +3,4 in the 1/4)
Car seems really happy too!
If I can get my 60's back under control I see a 13.80 or.90 in the car which would reach my goal.
to 46callaway, once again.. sorry for the highjack.. but consider for a moment some of the information that is coming to the surface in this thread.
it's not often Lonnie will commit 500+ word posts, while he's in the "typing mood" lets see how much we can "pry out of him"
{just kidding Lonnie, well sorta} HAHA
Thanks again Lonnie for your insight, wish you lived closer to texas dangit.. I'd buy you dinner and a beer
To:46Callaway, have you gotten to the datalogging yet?
Have you tried to confirm "delivered" AF versus "commanded"?
curious as to the difference between "commanded and delivered" w/ you car.
can you post it, when you get it?
I know for a fact I could/would have gotten a solid tune from you, no doubt.
But I really didn't want to bother you with the "back and forth" mail order stuff.
I made a bad choice, from the get go....without a doubt.
BUT.. I have to say I do value my tune file now much more than if I would have just been "handed" a tune file.
It forced me to learn, and apply what I learned into a real world scenario.
I'm quite happy with my performance tune at this point, HP is up as I made my first 80 MPH 1/8th mile and 100.99MPH in the 1/4 pass.
ET is still lacking a bit, due to me losing some time in my 60' probably due to my tires that are on their last leg...
but MPH is way up acrossed the board (+2 in the 1/8th and +3,4 in the 1/4)
Car seems really happy too!
If I can get my 60's back under control I see a 13.80 or.90 in the car which would reach my goal.
to 46callaway, once again.. sorry for the highjack.. but consider for a moment some of the information that is coming to the surface in this thread.
it's not often Lonnie will commit 500+ word posts, while he's in the "typing mood" lets see how much we can "pry out of him"
{just kidding Lonnie, well sorta} HAHA
Thanks again Lonnie for your insight, wish you lived closer to texas dangit.. I'd buy you dinner and a beer
To:46Callaway, have you gotten to the datalogging yet?
Have you tried to confirm "delivered" AF versus "commanded"?
curious as to the difference between "commanded and delivered" w/ you car.
can you post it, when you get it?
46callaway
Registered
I can't use the datalogging software yet as it is incompatible with the new v13 sniper interface I received. The techs are working on an update which should be available soon and I will definitely put it to use then.