SolipcisticSmile
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That is definately a viable option T. I will seriously consider doing that. It is inexpensive insurance, that is, if you actually look at it.
98' Cobra Intake Manifold
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SolipcisticSmile
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Wait a minute?!?!?!?! Did I read (into) that right T? Did you have a Chernoble recreation in your engine bay from running too lean from cleaning you AIR FILTER!?!?!?!?
bryantaylor
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exactly, but the most of the people buying chips don't know what all needs to be taken into account. don't get me wrong, lonnie and others deffently know what they are doing. i wish i knew even a 1/4 of what they do about tunning. but its still a risk running a blanket tune. BUT.... if you have a wideband, and know something about tunning and what to look for, by all means go for it to save a decent bit of money.
bryantaylor
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i really don't mean to come off as a dick or to offend, but things like that is what i was refering too. many people that get the tunes just dont know much about tunning.
to be honest man, just make sure you have a good pump and fuel filter. make sure you tell lonnie your mods, current and future, and you should be good to go. just don't pop a chip in and try to race everyone. LISTEN to your car, it will tell you when things arent going good.
also listen to mr.shultz's he has been around the mark world more than most of us here, he knows what he is talking about. go to a local GOOD tuner and turn them loose.
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Those considering any type of performance programming should read this. http://www.blueovalchips.com/index.php?action=What_Not_To_Do
Also, don't get confused with an off the shelf "canned tune" program from a custom program. I don't sell canned programs, each one is built to for the needs of the vehicle, owner's wants and my recommendations and experience. If you want a canned tune I can provide you with one but most people find that they aren't happy with them and so I don't even offer them.
Also, don't get confused with an off the shelf "canned tune" program from a custom program. I don't sell canned programs, each one is built to for the needs of the vehicle, owner's wants and my recommendations and experience. If you want a canned tune I can provide you with one but most people find that they aren't happy with them and so I don't even offer them.
See this http://www.lincolnsclub.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23759
Whatever that junk is in the tubes must have gotten onto my MAF meter causing it to peg at 3000 RPMs.
If you over oil the filter though it could insulate the wires on the MAF and won't deliver enough fuel making your motor go poof...
Right now my car runs but its all f-ed up.
Fuel pressure gauge is alot cheaper than a wideband since your not tuning your own car and once the pressure drops just get out of the throttle (atleast I think you'd be fine with one... others might have different opinions). But the digital gauge of the wideband A/F looks really pretty haha
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Just to clarify what I previously said, the part of the "tune" I was talking about - there is no way possible for any tuner out there to set your timing and air/fuel properly without putting your car on a dyno with a wide band or at least a sniffer. This is especially true when you have done any air intake mods. At best, it will be a ballpark tune - either way lean or fat, so you can drive your car to get a dyno tune.
Like I said, I have seen recently, two cars that had complete with a provided "tune" blower kits installed - one of them was used taken from another car, and the air/fuel was lean on both of them. This tune was supposed to be a real safe one, and is supplied as part of the kit. I am not knocking the tuner, as I said he is one of the best in the business, but for some reason, his tune produced spark knock, and lean air/fuel at about twice the elevation of where he created his tune from.
That said, IMHO, it is well worth the money to get your timing and air/fuel set on the dyno. My tuner will not sell a tune without the car being on the dyno, and he has proved why he does it that way time and time again.
Like I said, I have seen recently, two cars that had complete with a provided "tune" blower kits installed - one of them was used taken from another car, and the air/fuel was lean on both of them. This tune was supposed to be a real safe one, and is supplied as part of the kit. I am not knocking the tuner, as I said he is one of the best in the business, but for some reason, his tune produced spark knock, and lean air/fuel at about twice the elevation of where he created his tune from.
That said, IMHO, it is well worth the money to get your timing and air/fuel set on the dyno. My tuner will not sell a tune without the car being on the dyno, and he has proved why he does it that way time and time again.
SolipcisticSmile
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I appreciate your candor and obvious concern for the health of my baby:big-grin:. I ordered my x - cal & tune from Lonnie last week, so hopefully, it will be here soon. I will likely install a a/f gauge, but a wideband is waaayyy too expensive. I will pay close attention to my Maria, I always do.
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Mike, I think I understand what you are saying. But you are basically trying to split hairs here with your statements. I’ve read your posts several times to try and get what you are saying and it comes down to “Don’t ever get a mail order program, they can’t be trusted. Only correct way to tune your vehicle is on the dyno because no tuner can tune without one.” Most people for one reason or another don’t have the cash to just drop off their vehicle and then have it built, modified or dynoed. They have to depend on knowledgeable tuners that know the platforms. Yes there are some shady tuners out there and a lot more that don’t have a clue to what they are doing. They there are some cases where a tuner just screws up. That happens when you do thousands or programs. I don’t know what tuner you are referring to with your two examples but no one is perfect all the time. I do agree that running lean on a blown application should not happen with mail order. The way I do it with all my mail order forced induction and nitrous programming is they get a starter file that is on the conservative side and is purposely rich. I require the customer to then have the vehicle checked with a wide band and data log it for me. They send me the logs and I make the adjustments. That’s why my forced induction and nitrous programs cost more, there’s more tuning and reviewing of data logs. Now those that have say an EEC IV vehicle, their only choice is to have some pulls made on the dyno since there isn’t any way to get the proper parameters data logged for evaluation. They then send me that data.
But to say the only way to tune a vehicle is to dyno it is not true. I know of plenty of times I’ve have customers show up with a freshly dyno tuned vehicle that ran like crap and the a/f and spark were way off. It’s more of the ability of the tuner vice just having the software and facilities. Anyone can buy the software and a dyno, but can that anyone really tune?
I can also recall several times customers of mine posted on several sites their results of my mail order programming and then their local dyno shop or a dyno tune session. The majority of time my a/f curve was much better than the dyno tune and I either made just as much hp or it was a couple off either way. This doesn’t happen each and every time, this is just an example of what someone that can build mail order programs can do.
Now as for force induction and nitrous, I’d much rather have the vehicle present and on the dyno or street tune it. Even if I do dyno the vehicle I will always test it on the street or track to get real world data to evaluate from. Some of those customers I mentioned above that had their vehicles dyno tuned and showed up wanting me to fix their poorly performing vehicles I think part of the problem was that fact that the tuners never tested it on the street. I’ve been to a lot of dyno tune sessions and seen this time and time again. Their main excuse is “time is money”. They want your money and as many vehicles run through as possible. If they have to stop and street / track test each one that’s less vehicles they can get through the shop or dyno session.
Then there’s a major difference in the standard dyno tune that everyone thinks of and real dyno tuning. The typical dyno tuning that most think of is their vehicle is strapped down on the dyno and 3 or so pulls made to correct a/f and timing. Where as a real dyno tune can take days where the tuner goes through and actually calibrates each required parameter to build the correct tables (modeling) for each strategy such as cold starts, hot starts, failed MAF and so on. Most people won’t pay for that type of dyno tuning just because it is costly. But those tuners that do tune like this, (myself included) are more apt to be able to build you a much better mail order program than someone that just does dyno pulls with a/f and spark curves.
But to say the only way to tune a vehicle is to dyno it is not true. I know of plenty of times I’ve have customers show up with a freshly dyno tuned vehicle that ran like crap and the a/f and spark were way off. It’s more of the ability of the tuner vice just having the software and facilities. Anyone can buy the software and a dyno, but can that anyone really tune?
I can also recall several times customers of mine posted on several sites their results of my mail order programming and then their local dyno shop or a dyno tune session. The majority of time my a/f curve was much better than the dyno tune and I either made just as much hp or it was a couple off either way. This doesn’t happen each and every time, this is just an example of what someone that can build mail order programs can do.
Now as for force induction and nitrous, I’d much rather have the vehicle present and on the dyno or street tune it. Even if I do dyno the vehicle I will always test it on the street or track to get real world data to evaluate from. Some of those customers I mentioned above that had their vehicles dyno tuned and showed up wanting me to fix their poorly performing vehicles I think part of the problem was that fact that the tuners never tested it on the street. I’ve been to a lot of dyno tune sessions and seen this time and time again. Their main excuse is “time is money”. They want your money and as many vehicles run through as possible. If they have to stop and street / track test each one that’s less vehicles they can get through the shop or dyno session.
Then there’s a major difference in the standard dyno tune that everyone thinks of and real dyno tuning. The typical dyno tuning that most think of is their vehicle is strapped down on the dyno and 3 or so pulls made to correct a/f and timing. Where as a real dyno tune can take days where the tuner goes through and actually calibrates each required parameter to build the correct tables (modeling) for each strategy such as cold starts, hot starts, failed MAF and so on. Most people won’t pay for that type of dyno tuning just because it is costly. But those tuners that do tune like this, (myself included) are more apt to be able to build you a much better mail order program than someone that just does dyno pulls with a/f and spark curves.
Lonnie, Nothing that you don't already know... There is no way to datalog or email what you are putting to the ground without a dyno.
IMHO, most of the people doing mods to their Mark are trying to squeeze more power out of it. The dyno is a sure fire way to tell you if you are headed in the right direction, and that you are maximizing your modification investment.
IMHO, most of the people doing mods to their Mark are trying to squeeze more power out of it. The dyno is a sure fire way to tell you if you are headed in the right direction, and that you are maximizing your modification investment.
Lonnie...I read the link (again) and after seeing the note regarding engine temps as a required input for the EEC, I realized that my conversion to Evan's NPG+ coolant may have an impact on the programming...I'm just not sure.
Do you have experience with NPG conversions and their effect on these motors? My engine is running WAY better after the conversion (less timing retard...technical term Lonnie, not insulting you here), but I'm wondering if there are some more gains to be had with some program tweaking.
I'm asking this publicly because JP is also interested in the NPG coolant swap.
bryantaylor
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a wideband is the ONLY way to go. the cheap guages for your stock O2 is just blinking lights, nothing more.
Not all of us want only more power though. Until I can have a proper dyno tune by the right person, I want improved driveability, especially better shifts, better gas mileage, etc., and that's why I went with the chip/SCT tune from Lonnie (although I also did win them both in the LOD raffles, lol).
bryantaylor
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very cool lonnie. just wondering, with your tunes for customers, what WOT AFR and spark advance do you tune them for? just wondering.
also, what do you think about the moates setups and the tweecer RT for OBD-1 cars? i am looking to get something i can use to tune my car myself.
Just purchase your xcal and tune from one of the several Mark tuners, and get your transmission and all the Mark specific stuff the way you like it, and then take it to your local dyno tuner to set the A/F once you have your intake and engine mods done. It is the only way to be sure...
Yep Sharon, I think you get the best of everything doing it that way. That is why I also suggested to do that in my first post in this thread. Good sound advise in my book.
Lonnie
Blue Oval Chips
Lonnie, Nothing that you don't already know... There is no way to datalog or email what you are putting to the ground without a dyno.
IMHO, most of the people doing mods to their Mark are trying to squeeze more power out of it. The dyno is a sure fire way to tell you if you are headed in the right direction, and that you are maximizing your modification investment.
Mike, so now it comes down to dyno numbers. Since when did you become a tuner and gain all this knowledge, how many vehicles have your really tuned, or let’s just say how many Marks? It looks like we are going to continue to disagree here and going back and forth isn’t going to get either of us anywhere. You seem to have it out for anyone that mail orders since this is not the only thread that you’ve voice your opinion on trying to persuade others to stay away from anything but dyno tuning.
If you are one of those that is only interested in dyno numbers than that’s just fine with me. I deal with those types everyday. They want that final number so they can have bragging rights on the forums is what it comes down to. The funny thing about dyno numbers is that is all they are. In all my years of dyno tuning, track and street tuning I have to say that the fastest vehicles are not the ones with the highest dyno numbers all the time. Many times I’ve had customers run away from vehicles with more hp in heads up racing. That’s the only real numbers that count. Like I said before, its not the software or the equipment it’s the person at the keyboard.
You may not be able to get data “dyno numbers” from data logging, this is only somewhat true. But you can data log enough to know whether your modifications are as you say maximized. And if you are as up to speed like you’ve been putting out about tuning then you know this. Any vehicle that can be data logged or if you have the correct data logging equipment to work with said vehicle you can properly evaluate it to determine if you are getting the most out from it or not. Just because it doesn’t spit out a rwhp number doesn’t mean that it’s worthless info that a knowledgeable tuner couldn’t use. This in not just my opinion or an observation from a couple observed dyno tunes sessions or track events, this has been proven over and over, year after year and by thousands or tuners and racers. Also there are formulas and programs that will get you those numbers as long as you have all the correct info. The chassis dyno hasn’t been around that long. Racers were doing fine long before a chassis dyno came about with their data logging. The dyno just made is more convenient than going to the track. But the dyno will never replace running at the track and actually putting a real world load on the vehicle, they can only get you in the ball park. You can’t tell me no one tweaks their programming at the track to get the most even after the vehicle has been on the dyno. I still remember racers besides myself using data in the carburetor days to order a custom mail order carb. That’s still being done today, look at the Barry Grants and so on. You telling me that’s a waste of time too?
Back to the when did you become a tuner, so you’ve tuned enough people’s Marks to know that most of them are wanting the most they can get out of their vehicles. Most of the ones that I’ve dealt with want better drivability first and then more performance. That’s the same with several of the other tuners I talk with on our tuner boards. Most are dealing with second hand customers that had their Marks dyno tuned from someone else and now they have no drivability and more often than not the denotation, mileage or staring problems and so the customer is wanting it resolved. And I do get those that are only interested in maximum performance but that’s a different breed. I’m done here.
Lonnie, I don't need to explain or share nothing with you since you have seen and done it all, but I do want to share my experience and opinion with the members of this message board, just like you do, and I will continue to do just that.
It is ludicrous to think I would not post my opinion to something because it does not fit your business model.
Additionally, leave me out of your rants. It is not appreciated.
It is ludicrous to think I would not post my opinion to something because it does not fit your business model.
Additionally, leave me out of your rants. It is not appreciated.
SolipcisticSmile
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It is patently obvious to the dullest witted person on this forum that there is personal animosity between some of the members posting on this thread. I STARTED this thread to discuss possible upgrade options for someone like myself who is new to the Mark VIII scene. This thresd has devolved into something I do not like. I will not post here again.
*Cliff notes*
I agree with Lonnie on this aspect.
There are alot of people who look at "peak dyno numbers" and fail to consider the "area under the curve".
They will take a tune that shows 9 RWHP more than another tune, without looking at "all the data", and they will ignore a very important aspect..
which is "the AREA UNDER the curve".
Peak HP numbers are for "number chasers" and are usually sought out by people who are "check writers"
...write a check, get a number, then to brag on the internet that they made 9 HP more than "so an so".
I'm not saying Mike is a numbers chaser, or a check writer.. but I do agree with Lonnie. Especially in the aspect of Dyno's.
Dyno's can only be trusted as much as the person operating them.
There are Dyno operators that fool with the "correction numbers" while the customer isn't looking, then claim that they "made X amount MORE" HP.. when in fact they only changed the SAE conversion ratio....
THey often do this when Dynoing someone elses tune, they will FUDGE the correction factor to show that "you aren't making the correct amount of HP" then tell you that "so and so's tune is crap".
Then they put their tune on there... and UNfudge the dyno and then they are an "instant Internet HERO" because they make 9 RWHP more.
THAT is the #1 reason I got the stuff to do it myself.
because "I can trust ME".. I know that "I" wont lie to "ME".
and.. since "I" am not worrried about "making money off me"...there is no credibility issue.
Real World Tuning FTW, Dynos are for trailer queens and number chasers.
I agree with Lonnie on this aspect.
There are alot of people who look at "peak dyno numbers" and fail to consider the "area under the curve".
They will take a tune that shows 9 RWHP more than another tune, without looking at "all the data", and they will ignore a very important aspect..
which is "the AREA UNDER the curve".
Peak HP numbers are for "number chasers" and are usually sought out by people who are "check writers"
...write a check, get a number, then to brag on the internet that they made 9 HP more than "so an so".
I'm not saying Mike is a numbers chaser, or a check writer.. but I do agree with Lonnie. Especially in the aspect of Dyno's.
Dyno's can only be trusted as much as the person operating them.
There are Dyno operators that fool with the "correction numbers" while the customer isn't looking, then claim that they "made X amount MORE" HP.. when in fact they only changed the SAE conversion ratio....
THey often do this when Dynoing someone elses tune, they will FUDGE the correction factor to show that "you aren't making the correct amount of HP" then tell you that "so and so's tune is crap".
Then they put their tune on there... and UNfudge the dyno and then they are an "instant Internet HERO" because they make 9 RWHP more.
THAT is the #1 reason I got the stuff to do it myself.
because "I can trust ME".. I know that "I" wont lie to "ME".
and.. since "I" am not worrried about "making money off me"...there is no credibility issue.
Real World Tuning FTW, Dynos are for trailer queens and number chasers.
lonnie probably wont post that info on the internet....
I trust Lonnie explicitly.. he's learned from the best in the business.
Lonnies has the support from people that others only dream of....
If I had to choose and SCT dealer TODAY, it'd be Lonnie.
he's "been there" he's "done that".
With that said.. I understand Lonnies frustration, he posts GOOD accurate information and people want to debate it soley for the "thrill of the debate".
There is a very well known tuner that "fled the internet" because of just this type of behaviour.
You wont see him post on ANY public message board anymore.
Anyone that's been around for any length of time know's "WHO" I'm referring to... and dont ask.. because I will not post the tuners name because I honor his privacy.
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