98' Cobra Intake Manifold

[Lonnie]

Wayne, I don’t know enough about the Evan’s NPG to really make a worthwhile comment. When I first heard about it years ago I figured it was another gimmick and haven’t paid any attention to it. I just refreshed myself on it after your post and I’m not convinced. They offer no real evidence data in their write-ups. They talk about elevated temps and how an engine is able to withstand the increased temps with their product. This elevated temp will decrease emissions like they say. But as an engineer’s stand point elevated temps also decrease power in a gasoline engine. Also does that mean your engine is actually now operating at a much higher temp than it was designed? If so then programming would have to be addressed in all aspects at a calibration level. Also, these 4V engines are already known for eating valves and valve guides on the 7 and 8 cylinders due to bad cooling design. So with elevated temps I can see problems develop there much quicker. I didn’t read anywhere that it said it reduced the heat of an engine or I missed something. Or do you run a much cooler Tstat since this fluid absorbs or retains the heat longer. How long does it take before the fluid at the Tstat reaches opening temp and what is the engine temp when it does. If the engine does run cooler then there are some benefits and more evaluation is needed. I know that there are some racers that use something like this for their track only vehicles. These are nitrous burning type vehicles with most of the coolant passages filled with engine concrete. There’s a lot of testing that would need to be done in order to figure out if there are any benefits and then what really needs to be changed in the calibrations to keep an engine alive. I don’t have an answer for you, I just don’t know.

Bryan, yes the light show narrow band O2 setups are just that, light shows. We had another thread going that discussed these and why you need to use a real wide band setup. I posted a link in that tread with a comparison of the commonly available units also. For the most part, they are getting cheaper but then you also get what you pay for. I try and push customers into getting a good wide band when they start going towards intake setups, forced induction and nitrous kits. It’s just added insurance and a lot cheaper than having to buy a new engine.

As for tuning, I don’t put out exact figures but what I calibrate for is 12.5 – 12.8 a/f for normally aspirated vehicles. Depending on their mods and what they are wanting. A heavily modified vehicle or forced induction will dictate something else. 12.8 to 13.2 if they are looking for more economy. As far as timing, that is another one of those depends on the vehicle mods, miles, condition and the stock calibrations. These Marks even though there are only a few different calibrations they vary quite a bit.

I haven’t tried the Moates stuff yet. I learned with an EEC Tuner back when there was no EEC editor software to help, so it was all 1s and 0s. I got spoiled when Jerry W came up with his own software to which eventually became the Advantage used by SCT. So going backwards is not my idea of fun. Tweecer RT now has gotten better. I like the fact that you can data log the EEC IV with it. It’s still missing a lot of parameters that I would like to see added but for the most part it works. And unless for have a few thousand to spend on a real data logging setup that will work on the Mark this is about the best you will get for now.

 

[XLRVIII]

but its still a risk running a blanket tune .

not really, unless there is something drastically wrong with the car itself.

a knowledable tuner wont put out a "jagged edge" mail order tune.
a knowledgeable tuner wont tune themselves into a corner.

They will leave enough margin for error unless something really bad is wrong with the car, and running a car in that state on a dyno is no safer by any means.

cars blow up on Dyno's far more than they blow up on the street OR at the track.

 

[mlschultz]

A dyno is another tool in a tuners bag of tricks, to properly dial in a car. Yes, there are many other factors to consider when tuning a car on the street or track, but don't discount what a valuable tool a dyno is.

I watched Steve Petty (Google him or pick up just about any issue of your favorite racing/hotrod car magazine if you don't know who he is) tune a race car the other day. Guess where? A dyno. I watched JW tune a whole slew of cars a month or two ago. Guess where? A dyno.

These two guys are on the top of their game bar none. There are tuners out there that rely on a dyno to do their work. Why not ask them why they use a dyno. I will the next time I see them and let you know.

 

[XLRVIII]

I watched JW tune a whole slew of cars a month or two ago. Guess where? A dyno.

you can be assured that he has a host of files that address driveability issues set up before the car gets close to the dyno.

Watching Jerry and knowing what Jerry is doing is two drastically different things.

I watched Jerry tune a slew of cars.. that doesnt mean "I" know what Jerry was doing.

 

[mlschultz]

JW uses the dyno as part of his tuning process. That was my point all along in this thread. The dyno is a terrific tool. In fact, my Mark is going back on the rollers again this week.

 

[T man]

Mark 8s are made with the same parts and I don't know of any factory freaks... So if he has a stock mark and is just buying a tune it should be fine unless something is wrong with his car.

If he were going with bigger injectors, a turbo, supercharger, ported heads and intake... custom grind cams, ect... I would see it as pretty mandatory to go to a dyno for the tune.

 

[XLRVIII]

So if he has a stock mark and is just buying a tune it should be fine unless something is wrong with his car.

that is absolutely correct.
9 times out of 10 problems associated with tunes are problems with the car.. 10 times out of 10 the tuner is blamed because the "tune is bad"

I've seen it over and over and over...

And if you think "telling a person" there is a problem with their car is gonna FLY.. it wont.
You'd have better luck telling them they have a small penis, rather than a problem with their car.

Been there done that.

I wasted about 6 mos of my life trying to help a guy that simply wouldn't listen.
I should have just told him he had a small penis, rather than a bad fuel pump.
He probably wouldn't have gotten so mad at me.

 

[XLRVIII]

JW uses the dyno as part of his tuning process. That was my point all along in this thread. The dyno is a terrific tool. In fact, my Mark is going back on the rollers again this week.

Your RIGHT Mike, I never said you weren't.

there.. better now?

 

[XLRVIII]

there is no way possible for any tuner out there to set your timing and air/fuel properly without putting your car on a dyno with a wide band or at least a sniffer

ok.. NOW I found where you are wrong..sorry.

You can delete the word DYNO from your statement and it would still be TRUE.

And if your putting the tail pipe sniffer in the end of the exhaust pipe then that would explain why you've "seen" with your own two eyes a dangerously lean program from a well known vendor.

If the car has cats on it.. you cannot measure AF at the tail pipe.

Combustion is still occuring inside the cats and it's altering the AF ratio from what it was when it left the cylinder.

With a properly set up WB 02 guage there is no need for a car to even GET on a DYNO unless you want a "dyno number".. period.

With a properly installed and configured WB02 you can get FAR FAR better results in Road Tuning and Track tuning than you can on a static dyno..
even if it's a load bearing dyno.

The dyno cannot duplicated the aerodynamic loads put on a car, it takes rolling resistance out of the equation.
Cars on a dyno can tolerate more spark than one that is on the road because the load is simply "inaccurate"
Once you take this "dyno queen" out of the street, and it detonates because it has a different load than the car was tuned for.

Hence.. your car is "going back on the rollers"..
IF the "Dyno Tune" was "all that" then you wouldn't have to put it back on the rollers.

Get your tuner to spend some actual seat time driving the car..using WB02 on the road.. under REAL world conditions, not some controlled environment in a dyno cell with some BS fan blowing on your car.

If your car was tuned properly in the first place.. you wouldn't need to "go back to the rollers"... and if your car was set up properly then you could take it out.. log some data and "FIX IT YOURSELF"....

Then again.. you could just write a check and continue to write a check until "someone else" gets it right.

again.. when your right.. your right, but in this case.. your dead wrong or simply mis informed.

sorry

 

[logres]

When I first heard about it years ago I figured it was another gimmick and haven’t paid any attention to it. I just refreshed myself on it after your post and I’m not convinced. They offer no real evidence data in their write-ups. They talk about elevated temps and how an engine is able to withstand the increased temps with their product. This elevated temp will decrease emissions like they say. But as an engineer’s stand point elevated temps also decrease power in a gasoline engine. Also does that mean your engine is actually now operating at a much higher temp than it was designed? If so then programming would have to be addressed in all aspects at a calibration level. Also, these 4V engines are already known for eating valves and valve guides on the 7 and 8 cylinders due to bad cooling design. So with elevated temps I can see problems develop there much quicker. I didn’t read anywhere that it said it reduced the heat of an engine or I missed something. Or do you run a much cooler Tstat since this fluid absorbs or retains the heat longer. How long does it take before the fluid at the Tstat reaches opening temp and what is the engine temp when it does. If the engine does run cooler then there are some benefits and more evaluation is needed. I know that there are some racers that use something like this for their track only vehicles. These are nitrous burning type vehicles with most of the coolant passages filled with engine concrete. There’s a lot of testing that would need to be done in order to figure out if there are any benefits and then what really needs to be changed in the calibrations to keep an engine alive. I don’t have an answer for you, I just don’t know.

The engine runs at an OVERALL higher temp (10-20 degrees), but the magic in the coolant is its ability to eliminate the hotspots that cause detonation. The reason I went to NPG was to ALLEVIATE the 4V poor cooling design.

That's good in theory, but does it really work?

As someone intimately familiar with my Mark who has been on NPG for about six months, I can honestly say that it runs much better: smoother idle, around 10% better gas mileage, and zero timing retardation when hot.

For example, in 100 degree weather I could run the engine temp up to 250 in stop-and-go traffic with the AC on. Before NPG, anyone who's driven a Mark could feel the timing retardation...it was excessive. After NPG, same conditions, engine at 250 degrees, and zero timing retard. We're talking night-and-day, with nothing else changing.

 

[mlschultz]

ok.. NOW I found where you are wrong..sorry.

You can delete the word DYNO from your statement and it would still be TRUE.

And if your putting the tail pipe sniffer in the end of the exhaust pipe then that would explain why you've "seen" with your own two eyes a dangerously lean program from a well known vendor.

If the car has cats on it.. you cannot measure AF at the tail pipe.

Combustion is still occuring inside the cats and it's altering the AF ratio from what it was when it left the cylinder.

With a properly set up WB 02 guage there is no need for a car to even GET on a DYNO unless you want a "dyno number".. period.

With a properly installed and configured WB02 you can get FAR FAR better results in Road Tuning and Track tuning than you can on a static dyno..
even if it's a load bearing dyno.

The dyno cannot duplicated the aerodynamic loads put on a car, it takes rolling resistance out of the equation.
Cars on a dyno can tolerate more spark than one that is on the road because the load is simply "inaccurate"
Once you take this "dyno queen" out of the street, and it detonates because it has a different load than the car was tuned for.

Hence.. your car is "going back on the rollers"..
IF the "Dyno Tune" was "all that" then you wouldn't have to put it back on the rollers.

Get your tuner to spend some actual seat time driving the car..using WB02 on the road.. under REAL world conditions, not some controlled environment in a dyno cell with some BS fan blowing on your car.

If your car was tuned properly in the first place.. you wouldn't need to "go back to the rollers"... and if your car was set up properly then you could take it out.. log some data and "FIX IT YOURSELF"....

Then again.. you could just write a check and continue to write a check until "someone else" gets it right.

again.. when your right.. your right, but in this case.. your dead wrong or simply mis informed.

sorry

Tommy, I went from a s-trim to a t-trim. That is why it is going back on the rollers.

Talk about dead wrong and misinformed?

I am not going to argue with you about this crap. Have a great day!

 

[XLRVIII]

every 10 degree's you raise or lower the intake temps adds or subtracts 2% HP.

Honestly I doubt the NPG claims and understand that you really like the stuff.

but I dont really trust your "butt-0-meter" to give accurate data.

you need to datalog your timing and post the datalog showing what your claiming.
I also doubt your 250 degree coolant temps.

I just dont see how a 10-20 degree HOTTER intake charge is going to have a positive effect on making more HP.

coupled with the #6-#7 cylinder coolant flow issue only exasperates the concern.

250 degree's?

Datalog this, I wanna see that 250 degree's with no timing retard.
post the .scv file

 

[XLRVIII]

Tommy, I went from a s-trim to a t-trim. That is why it is going back on the rollers.

Talk about dead wrong and misinformed?

I am not going to argue with you about this crap. Have a great day!

Hey Mike I'm not too proud to say "I was wrong"... might give it a try sometime.. it actually feels good.

You left out KEY information, then want to smack me with this revelation when I talk you into a corner?

Way to "pick and choose" sir... and you have a nice day as well.

I still stand by my statements, no need to argue.

 

[logres]

every 10 degree's you raise or lower the intake temps adds or subtracts 2% HP.

Honestly I doubt the NPG claims and understand that you really like the stuff.

but I dont really trust your "butt-0-meter" to give accurate data.

you need to datalog your timing and post the datalog showing what your claiming.
I also doubt your 250 degree coolant temps.

I just dont see how a 10-20 degree HOTTER intake charge is going to have a positive effect on making more HP.

coupled with the #6-#7 cylinder coolant flow issue only exasperates the concern.

250 degree's?

Datalog this, I wanna see that 250 degree's with no timing retard.
post the .scv file

I agree with your statement regarding intake temps...a side effect more than offset by the fact that my ECC doesn't have to retard timing anymore.

And it's not about me liking the stuff...you need to get off that horse. I've tested many products and have openly admitted to this board when they didn't work (like the "Tornado", and peroxide injection). I have no problem admitting I'm wrong.

http://www.evanscooling.com/main20.htm

This link shows all the cars on racing teams using NPG...I don't think I need to explain myself to anyone. Just because you don't understand how it works doesn't mean it's a scam.

And what's with the reference to my "butt-o-meter". I said the difference is night-and-day...meaning it's as different when the sun is in the sky vs. not in the sky. I'm not an idiot. Could you tell the difference in power between a Vette and a 69 VW bug? Then you know what I'm getting at.

I'll give you the 250 degrees part, and say that my temp needle was on the "N". And yes, my temp gauge is working properly. Needle is on the "A" in the winter right where my 180 tstat says it should be. Mind you, I really have to be aggressive to get the temp up to 250.

And I never said NPG makes more power. I said it eliminates the decrease in power at hotter engine temps and that it improved my gas mileage. Like the site says, it eliminates micro boiling in the parts of the engine that get the hottest, which would otherwise cause detonation. This effect also alleviates the #6-#7 cooling problem.

Look, let's assume for discussion sake that we're both at an engineer's technical level, we're both very knowledgable about and repair most things on cars, and that we both have very high IQs. Then the only difference would be that I've actually tried NPG and you haven't. Why should your opinion carry more weight than my experience?

 

[XLRVIII]

Wayne you wouldn't accept for a second if I made such a claim why should I.

not that I dont believe you, not at all..
but I only asked that you provide some data to support your claim.

The butt-0-meter is notorious for lying and being in accurate...that's all I'm sayin.


you have an xcal right?
Set up a datalog and look at the data, rather than guessing.

 

[logres]

Wayne you wouldn't accept for a second if I made such a claim why should I.

not that I dont believe you, not at all..
but I only asked that you provide some data to support your claim.

The butt-0-meter is notorious for lying and being in accurate...that's all I'm sayin.


you have an xcal right?
Set up a datalog and look at the data, rather than guessing.

Too much work for nothing.

Even if I somehow manage to convince you, I doubt you'd make the switch.

And the fact that reputable racing teams use NPG will convince most everyone else.

 

[bryantaylor]

thanks for the input lonnie. i am leaning more towards the tweecer setup so i can actually datalog, but i am still trying to learn about EEC tuning. i use megasquirt on my other cars and it is a COMPLETLY different ball game.

this is getting to be a VERY good thread, lots of nice info in here.

 

[T man]

The dyno cannot duplicated the aerodynamic loads put on a car, it takes rolling resistance out of the equation.

I think you'd find it pretty interesting that my uncles new mustang dyno dials in the aerodynamic loads for your car at speed aswell as the weight while doing the runs...

To bad he can only tune chevys right now. haha

 

[driller]

Wow, the 'tuner wars' have returned!

 

[XLRVIII]

Too much work for nothing.

Even if I somehow manage to convince you, I doubt you'd make the switch.

And the fact that reputable racing teams use NPG will convince most everyone else.

The fact that many NHRA "reputable" teams use Royal Purple oil doesnt not mean I'm gonna run out and pour Purple poop into my motor.

I dont do "monkey see monkey doo" modifications, I only do those that are proven.

just because NPG gives stuff to races teams and they use it doesnt mean it's "proven".

I base my mods on fact, not hearsay..

The proof is in the pudding.

you say it's "too much work".

you mean, plugging and XCal into the obd2 port is too much work?

That in itself tells me you dont "trust" the product.. and are afraid of what the datalog will tell us.

If it were proven to be a benefit I would switch in a new york second.

But I dont believe for a second that this "majic fluid" eliminates the #7-#8 cylinder overheating problems.. if it did, it would have been one of those "shots heard around the world".

ALL I asked was some data to back up your claims.. and you crayfished.
That's.. all I need to hear.. I guess.

unless you provide data to back up "YOUR" claims, not linking to someome elses experience, then it's all just hearsay.